I'm curious as to how you would....

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  • flyboylr45
    Member
    • Jan 2007
    • 32

    I'm curious as to how you would....

    I'm curious as to how you would compare Rotel with some of the higher priced brands like Krell, Halo, Bryston, Macintosh ect... The step up in money is huge and I'm wondering if that money would be better spent somewhere else, like speakers ect. I would love to hear from people that have heard either equipment. Thanks :T
  • voxy
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2005
    • 113

    #2
    Firstly, you need to decide on the speakers before looking into amplification. Normally more should be spent on speakers since it determines the final "voice" of the overall presentation. After that you should decide on the amps to drive them and finally the source.

    Comment

    • flyboylr45
      Member
      • Jan 2007
      • 32

      #3
      Yes, but lets say you have the same speakers, how would they then compare to each other.

      Comment

      • calmac
        Senior Member
        • May 2005
        • 110

        #4
        Originally posted by flyboylr45
        Yes, but lets say you have the same speakers, how would they then compare to each other.
        You need to go and do the comparison for yourself , everyones perceptions of what's good and bad differ.So just because I prefer the sound of Linn and Naim equipment to most of the American gear, I have heard, doesn't mean you will.
        Gordon

        Comment

        • chinets
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2005
          • 855

          #5
          Rotel is great for their price and compete with equipment 10 times it's price, but at the end of the day, it is the type of sound that pleases your ears and not what people here and there say. You could actually love the sound of Rotel over Naim , Linn or even Krell ,but ONLY your OWN ears will determine that, and your taste in sound. More expensive does NOT mean better IMHO !!
          Cheers

          Comment

          • bigburner
            Super Senior Member
            • May 2005
            • 2649

            #6
            In my opinion your money would be better spent on speakers. The difference between one set of speakers and another can be much greater than the difference between the sound of one amplifier and another. Unless you have acute hearing you may not even be able to hear the difference between one amp and another. Blind tests with large groups of "non-audiophile" people have confirmed this.

            Rotel's aim is to provide good price performance. This means that they use components that are adequate for the job but not the best quality available. It also means that their build quality and testing are adequate but not exceptional because these increase the cost too.

            When you buy the higher priced brands you are generally getting superior componentry, build quality and testing. Just look at the 20 year warranty that Bryston provides. You wont get that from Rotel.

            I have Rotel because it provides good price performance. My Rotel gear doesn't run my pacemaker or control the supply of oxygen in my spaceship. It just supplies music, so catastrophic failure isn't the end of the world. Failure is a nuisance though, and some people are prepared to pay more to avoid that nuisance.

            Comment

            • calmac
              Senior Member
              • May 2005
              • 110

              #7
              Originally posted by chinets
              Rotel is great for their price and compete with equipment 10 times it's price, but at the end of the day, it is the type of sound that pleases your ears and not what people here and there say. You could actually love the sound of Rotel over Naim , Linn or even Krell ,but ONLY your OWN ears will determine that, and your taste in sound. More expensive does NOT mean better IMHO !!
              Cheers
              I disagree with this in as much as while you may prefer the tonality of one product over another, products like Linn and Naim , which I have lots of personal and retail experience of, are far superior in their ability to render a believable musical experience if you use real live musical performance as a reference.
              I think Rotel do an excellent job for the price and imo far outperform the mass of sonically bland boxes for the mass market manufacturers.
              I may be at odds with a lot of lay oppinion but I do believe some products are just better in terms of their fidelity to the recorded sound and many of the judgments made are erroneous ,based on the fact that the listener has little idea what real instruments or live voices sound like.This isn't meant to sound in any way elitist , it's just my opinion based on 20 years in the high quality hi-fi retail game and over 30 years listening to live unprocessed music.
              Their is no harm is someone choosing equipment because " that's the sound they like" but it doesn't necessarily mean it's good hi-fi.
              Gordon

              Comment

              • shadow 8
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2004
                • 153

                #8
                Of course it does. This is not brain surgury or a pacemaker technology as stated by an earlier poster. You like Naim, fine. That does not mean its better than Rotel or gives a better hi fi experience. There is no objective evidence to support your opinion, so it comes down to personal, subjective taste. Good hifi is what sounds good/best to you. Unless you can point to objective evidence of superior specs which translate to better sound quality, its just your opinion what sounds better.

                Comment

                • calmac
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2005
                  • 110

                  #9
                  Originally posted by shadow 8
                  Of course it does. This is not brain surgury or a pacemaker technology as stated by an earlier poster. You like Naim, fine. That does not mean its better than Rotel or gives a better hi fi experience. There is no objective evidence to support your opinion, so it comes down to personal, subjective taste. Good hifi is what sounds good/best to you. Unless you can point to objective evidence of superior specs which translate to better sound quality, its just your opinion what sounds better.
                  We will just have to disagree on this one.I am not suggesting that anyone should buy something that they don't like the sound of or because some self appointed guru tells them to but some components are just better than others at reproducing an accurate facsimilie of the recorded sound and are therefor better hi-fi.For clarity I don't actually like the Naim sound , finding it too bright and hard for my taste on much material and in many rooms but I can see that it creates a more realistic representation of the musical event than lower priced products.Linn would be my system of choice as it offers a similar level of insight into the performance but with a more natural tonal balance.This is MY personal choice based on tonal balance , however both Linn and Naim offer far greater musical insight and sense of being there than the excellent but lower priced Rotel ,which I own.Personal preference must be the final arbitter but if you use the sound of real instruments and voices as your reference you start from a more realistic point.
                  As for specifications it's long been suggested that all equipment that measures the same should sound the same and we know that's just not true ,perhaps we just haven't reached the stage where we can measure the things that are required.
                  So , people should make up their own minds but they should do it armed with the best possible information and reference points.If you have only ever heard a violin reproduced through a set of cheap speakers on your tv or bedside radio how do you judge which is the most realistic reproduction on a quality hi-fi system.
                  Gordon

                  Comment

                  • chinets
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 855

                    #10
                    I disagree with you calmac,
                    Expensive does NOT mean better. I have a top of the line LINN CD Player and top of the line Rotel CD Player ,and if I did not have a LONG session in my own house ,and auditioned both players with my speakers, it would have taken me a long time to decide which is better, and the LINN, by the way, was almost 10 times the price of my Rotel. Thank God I auditioned this at home, because at my dealer both sounded quite similar to MY ears.
                    That is why I said, let your ears make your final judgement, and not the price of the equipment ,and just like Big burner said..The speakers are what give the final voice or sound ,and Amps etc. are very hard to tell the difference between one and the other especially if they have the same juice power. Even CD players have their own sound, and the cheaper player could literaly sound better or Vise Versa ,so NEVER let the price tag fool you, so TRUST your ears ,because at the end of the day ,it will be you and only you who will be stuck with your equipment not us people on the forum or some dude that says Expensive will always be better!!
                    My 2 cents and Cheers

                    Comment

                    • tagman
                      Junior Member
                      • Jan 2007
                      • 23

                      #11
                      Originally posted by shadow 8
                      Of course it does. This is not brain surgury or a pacemaker technology as stated by an earlier poster. You like Naim, fine. That does not mean its better than Rotel or gives a better hi fi experience. There is no objective evidence to support your opinion, so it comes down to personal, subjective taste. Good hifi is what sounds good/best to you. Unless you can point to objective evidence of superior specs which translate to better sound quality, its just your opinion what sounds better.
                      I totally agree with this statement, and couldn't have said it better myself. :T

                      Comment

                      • tagman
                        Junior Member
                        • Jan 2007
                        • 23

                        #12
                        When we bought our Rotel equipment, we auditioned this product from a dealer whom also carried Classe, Mcintosh, Ayre, and a few more high end
                        products. We demoed all these components with the same pair of speakers, Which were the speakers that we ended up buying.

                        My wife, and I did not here any differences. The sales person was very professional, and did not try to SUGGEST that there was a difference.

                        Yes, some of the higher priced components seemed to have a heavier,
                        fancier looking chassis. Maybe built a little more rugged, but for the price differences we could not justify paying 5 times more for an amplifier with half the power, and a fancier faceplate. I bought 3 Rotels.

                        My Rotel equipment sounds even better in my house, and with the extra money I bought my wife a brand new piano. So to the poster who claims
                        that his brand of choice sounds like the real instrument, I have to say that I hear true high fidelity through my speakers, and my piano.

                        Comment

                        • BTB
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 198

                          #13
                          Hi Flyboy...

                          If you've got basic but good quality amplification (Rotel being a good place to start) and money to spend, change your speakers. In other words... Speakers make the biggest single difference to the overall sound of a system.

                          I would have to say that when buying uber expensive, luxury hi-fi gear there may well be "other factors" that influence the minds perception of sonic quality; but that's just my opinion.

                          I have heard many of the top brands myself, and I just don't think that the sonic differences they offer can truly justify the massive price tags. Personally I'd rather spend the difference on new music, and that's A BUNCH of new music : .

                          Just for the record, I'm not a Rotel fan... so I'm not biased that way.

                          Comment

                          • calmac
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2005
                            • 110

                            #14
                            Originally posted by chinets
                            I disagree with you calmac,
                            Expensive does NOT mean better. I have a top of the line LINN CD Player and top of the line Rotel CD Player ,and if I did not have a LONG session in my own house ,and auditioned both players with my speakers, it would have taken me a long time to decide which is better, and the LINN, by the way, was almost 10 times the price of my Rotel. Thank God I auditioned this at home, because at my dealer both sounded quite similar to MY ears.
                            That is why I said, let your ears make your final judgement, and not the price of the equipment ,and just like Big burner said..The speakers are what give the final voice or sound ,and Amps etc. are very hard to tell the difference between one and the other especially if they have the same juice power. Even CD players have their own sound, and the cheaper player could literaly sound better or Vise Versa ,so NEVER let the price tag fool you, so TRUST your ears ,because at the end of the day ,it will be you and only you who will be stuck with your equipment not us people on the forum or some dude that says Expensive will always be better!!
                            My 2 cents and Cheers
                            You are missing my point , I am not saying that ones ears shouldn't make the final judgment but I am saying the should be properly 'programmed' first otherwise you can end up with a horrendously coloured system which sounds great on a small range of music and horrendous on most everything else.Your advice is perhaps less dangerous for the seasoned audiophile but the imo less accurate approach you advocate could lead beginners to a great deal of dissatisfaction and turn them of the hobby for life.
                            After 20 years in quality retail I have a good idea about system matching ,component hierachey and how to carry out demonstrations that honestly and easily allow customers to hear differences between cd players ,amps and speakers.If you have difficulty hearing the difference between a LINN cd player and a Rotel then may I respectfully suggest that something in your system or room is veiling the sound as I have little difficulty in discriminating between players of the same price never mind thousands of dollars apart.My partner who has no interest in the subject beyond the music easily hears the difference between our old 1072 and our new Consonance CD120.
                            I would never suggest for one moment that just because a product is more expensive it's better , theres a lot of expensive garbage on the market and imo those who don't have a real world reference are more easily convinced to buy such product.
                            As far as the importance of speakers goes , well there is no such thing as the perfect speaker but even the most neutral and accurate speakers in the world will only sound as good as whats fed into them.While you may have to spend more on the speakers as a portion of the overall budget than the amp and source I believe too many folk over capitalise on their speakers in part because that's where most of the profit lies for dealers and so expensive speakers tend to be pushed harder than good system balance requires.

                            Gordon

                            Comment

                            • BTB
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 198

                              #15
                              Gordon

                              A very well written post, you have stated your case very clearly.

                              I agree, without experience and knowledge of high end audio, a beginner might well end up with the type of system you've described, but I reckon there is an inevitable period of fumbling around until understanding comes.

                              Regarding speakers, again you're right, there is no such thing as the "perfect" model and also if you feed a great speaker a poor signal you will get poor results... My personal emphasis on the importance of speakers in the playback chain is simple: If I changed a pair of cabinet type speakers for a pair of electrostatics or little bookshelf types for big full range floorstanders the differences would be immediate and obvious, much more so than if I changed a Rotel 1080 for say a overbuilt, overpriced model from Krell, which was basically the question from the original poster.

                              In other words, I simply don't think that the cost to benefit ratio makes the excercise worthwhile. But, to be honest, since being seduced by the sound of valves in the last two years or so, most solid state amplification sounds a little sterile to me anyway, so I might not be the most objective judge in this regard.

                              Lastly... nice one on the Consonance 120 CDP... I have the Linear version of that player... aren't they great? Now that's value for money in my opinion anyway.

                              Comment

                              • calmac
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2005
                                • 110

                                #16
                                Originally posted by BTB
                                Gordon

                                A very well written post, you have stated your case very clearly.

                                I agree, without experience and knowledge of high end audio, a beginner might well end up with the type of system you've described, but I reckon there is an inevitable period of fumbling around until understanding comes.

                                Regarding speakers, again you're right, there is no such thing as the "perfect" model and also if you feed a great speaker a poor signal you will get poor results... My personal emphasis on the importance of speakers in the playback chain is simple: If I changed a pair of cabinet type speakers for a pair of electrostatics or little bookshelf types for big full range floorstanders the differences would be immediate and obvious, much more so than if I changed a Rotel 1080 for say a overbuilt, overpriced model from Krell, which was basically the question from the original poster.

                                In other words, I simply don't think that the cost to benefit ratio makes the excercise worthwhile. But, to be honest, since being seduced by the sound of valves in the last two years or so, most solid state amplification sounds a little sterile to me anyway, so I might not be the most objective judge in this regard.

                                Lastly... nice one on the Consonance 120 CDP... I have the Linear version of that player... aren't they great? Now that's value for money in my opinion anyway.
                                Thank's BTB.
                                I completely agree that there will always be a degree of 'fumbling' as one starts out on the process of assembling a quality music or ht system although imo this can be minimised with the help of a knowledgeable and musically experienced friend or dealer ,what I took issue with was "Good hi-fi is what sounds best to you" style comments.This attitude seems to have become a lot more prevalent in the last 10 years or so and whilst I can see where it coming from I don't think it's help full in putting together a quality hifi system. In fact I would go so far as to say that it's a lazy approach that will end up in a great deal more money being spent as the consumer continues to fumble around in the dark changing out components and wondering why his or her system just never sounds right across all his musical taste.The approach is a great one for the less scrupulous dealers ,as they make more money but in the end it has a greater chance of creating frustration and dissatisfaction in the end user than an approach that uses real world musical reference points.
                                We are told that "everyones ears are different" and nobody knows just how much variation there is from one human to another and of course our perceptions are based on a great many factors , this is why I recommend using your own ears to listen to a variety of live musical performance in a variety of venues so that ones perceptions are based on a valid reference rather than some 'warm and fuzzy' "if it sounds good to you ,it is" ideology.
                                Ultimately which ever path one chooses if one is happy with the end result that's what counts but my experience has been that those who accept the 'lazy' approach end up going round and round ,never achieving musical bliss.
                                There is no doubt in my mind that changing speakers has a huge impact on the resultant sound quality however I do feel that the importance of the ancillaries tends to be over looked or minimised these days.As an example , the change from the justifiably well regarded 1072 to my new Consonance CD120/192 has transformed the sound of the system.Gone is the fatiguing harshness to be replaced by a sound where instruments have real body and weight ,natural ambience seems better reproduced , the Rotel made everything sound as if it was recorded in a very dead acoustic environment.Most tellingly older or poorer recordings that were pretty much unplayable on the 1072 are now list enable and enjoyable.In the final analysis the Consonance gives a greater sense of 'being there' of creating something that is more musically correct and that means greater access to the emotive power of more of my music.For those who don't know the CD120 Linear and the 1072 are the same price in Australia , the 120/192 is $200 au more expensive.
                                As far as the cost/benefit analysis of amps versus speakers go, I think Krell is a particularly good example of overpriced high-end product which shows little real musical advantage and in some cases is poorer than lower priced value for money electronics , some folk are willing to pay for a name or a theoretical reputation , for looks or some other less tangible benefit and this is even more dangerous but just as understandable as the 'lazy' approach.
                                The differences between sources and amps are more subtle than speakers however imo no less important in achieving a musically believable performance.One could go on and on swapping out speakers but if the source or amp is omitting or destroying musical cues the system will never improve , it will just change in character.
                                At the end of the day this hobby is about having fun and gaining enjoyment from reproduced music , oh , and movies , each of us decides how much effort or time we can or will invest .All I have ever tried to do as a retailer or friend has been to try and make the 'process' of purchasing a system as painless and as musically profitable for the end user as possible.It seems to me that what I am saying has logic to it.It is based on many years as an enthusiast and music lover, with input from some of the worlds most acclaimed hi-fi designers , recording engineers and a variety of musicians.
                                These ideas may move some out of their 'comfort zone' but I am yet to see anyone make a valid argument against the fact that if you use real world instruments and voices as your reference you will obtain a system that is musically enjoyable over a wider range of music.
                                Gordon

                                Comment

                                • calmac
                                  Senior Member
                                  • May 2005
                                  • 110

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by tagman
                                  When we bought our Rotel equipment, we auditioned this product from a dealer whom also carried Classe, Mcintosh, Ayre, and a few more high end
                                  products. We demoed all these components with the same pair of speakers, Which were the speakers that we ended up buying.

                                  My wife, and I did not here any differences. The sales person was very professional, and did not try to SUGGEST that there was a difference.

                                  Yes, some of the higher priced components seemed to have a heavier,
                                  fancier looking chassis. Maybe built a little more rugged, but for the price differences we could not justify paying 5 times more for an amplifier with half the power, and a fancier faceplate. I bought 3 Rotels.

                                  My Rotel equipment sounds even better in my house, and with the extra money I bought my wife a brand new piano. So to the poster who claims
                                  that his brand of choice sounds like the real instrument, I have to say that I hear true high fidelity through my speakers, and my piano.
                                  I am astonished that you couldn't hear ANY difference between the various electronics as at the very least they are all different tonally, without even beginning to talk about musical or hi-fi criteria.
                                  Some would say the salesman's approach was professional some would say he wasn't doing his job properly ,to me it depends on what a particular customer requires and that to me is being professional.
                                  You won't get any argument from me that Rotel provide ,in most cases , excellent value for money and the law of diminishing returns certainly comes into play but if you really think that all 5 times the expenditure buys is a fancier case then the salesman imo hasn't done a good demonstration because differences and improvements should be clearly audible.A value judgment that says , yes I can hear a difference but am not willing to pay for it is quite understandable but no difference in sound quality smacks of poor demonstrations.
                                  With very few exceptions in my 20 years in quality retail the system always sounds better at home.There are many reasons why this is so not least of which is that most hi-fi shops are far poorer acoustically and electrically than the average lounge room.
                                  Now it seems to me that most have misinterpreted my remarks as pushing a particular brand and this most definetly is not the case.I am suggesting a way of personally evaluating a sound system that removes some of the vagueries and uses instead a valid reference point ,any manufacturers mentioned were simply examples , that I have heard ,that seem to create a better representation of real music to me and those whose opinions and experience I hold in high regard .The point is ,listen for yourself but use a valid reference point.
                                  For clarity ,tagman , I would imagine that when you and your wife bought the Piano you found that they all sounded different in tone , in attack , in the way the notes decayed and you choose one based on your personal preference.That imo is how one buys musical instruments however if you choose a hi-fi system by the same criteria you could end up with something that for example, makes a Bosendorfer sound like a Steinway or a Yamaha , you may like the sound but that doesn't mean it's an accurate representation of the recording and consequently everything played on the system sounds unnatural or coloured and from experience this narrows the spectrum of music that sounds good on such a system.
                                  At the end of the day if you have satisfied yourself that you can't hear a difference between hi-fi components , then by all means purchase the cheapest possible equipment that fulfills your other criteria but bear in mind that many others can hear a difference and that doesn't mean we are all deluded audiophiles anymore than some one who can't hear the difference has a hearing deficit.
                                  Gordon
                                  Last edited by calmac; 15 February 2007, 06:47 Thursday.

                                  Comment

                                  • bigburner
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • May 2005
                                    • 2649

                                    #18
                                    I've really enjoyed the arguments put forward in this thread. However the thread would be more interesting if we knew what gear each poster has. It provides a useful reference point.

                                    So I'd like to make a public appeal -

                                    PLEASE UPDATE YOUR PROFILE SO WE KNOW WHAT GEAR YOU'VE GOT.

                                    If you don't know how to do this then it's:

                                    User CP –> Edit Profile –> Additional Information –> Describe your System(s)

                                    Apologies for raising my voice there!

                                    Nigel.

                                    Comment

                                    • BTB
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Jan 2006
                                      • 198

                                      #19
                                      Nigel,

                                      I took your "advice" :lol: ... and updated my profile...

                                      Anyway, take it easy and go have a listen to that band from my home town who's music you seem to be enjoying so much lately... :W

                                      Comment

                                      • bigburner
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • May 2005
                                        • 2649

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by BTB
                                        Anyway, take it easy and go have a listen to that band from my home town who's music you seem to be enjoying so much lately... :W
                                        Freshly Ground? Very nice.

                                        Comment

                                        • BTB
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2006
                                          • 198

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by bigburner
                                          Freshly Ground? Very nice.
                                          Yup... indeed.

                                          Comment

                                          • mattburk
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Feb 2003
                                            • 248

                                            #22
                                            tagman, did you compare music and movies or just movies?
                                            www.mycstone.com
                                            www.coverednow.com
                                            www.biarenton.com

                                            Comment

                                            • calmac
                                              Senior Member
                                              • May 2005
                                              • 110

                                              #23
                                              There we go , added my equipment list.
                                              Gordon

                                              Comment

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