Help improving bass response

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  • Skip
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2003
    • 19

    Help improving bass response

    HI Everybody. My setup consists of a Rotel RS-X1055, RB-1080 (powering the mains), B&W CDM9nt mains, B&W center and in-ceiling rear speakers. No sub (my wife vetoed the idea :cry: ). I am also using a Denon 2910 DVD player for DVD and CDs.

    Anyway, the B&Ws generally sound great for 2ch, but I am noticing that the bass response is lacking, even when taking into account that I don't use a sub. I am using the pre outs from the Rotel and the multi input (for analog bypass???) from the Denon as I find the Denon DACs to sound a bit better than the Rotel for 2ch audio. The speaker selectors show no sub, so there should no issue with the crossover settings.

    Anyway, this has been bugging me for a while and I finally got to the point where I thought I would try to solicit some help. Given what I spent on the system, I am frustrated that I get a more defined bass response from the stock system in my 3-Series BMW.

    Many thanks in advance for the help,
    Skip
  • Blindamood
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2003
    • 899

    #2
    Are you sure that your speakers are set to Large in both the receiver, and in the Denon? It sounds as though you're only running analog inputs from the Denon, so bass management would be handled there.

    Also make sure there is no type of dynamic compression turned on the Denon (i.e., reduces highs and lows for night-time viewing).
    Brad

    Comment

    • Navin R. Johnso
      Member
      • Apr 2006
      • 38

      #3
      Have you looked at a B&W PV-1? That guy is pretty small and could be tucked in a lot of places, if the visual impact of a sub was what bothered your wife.

      Comment

      • Skip
        Junior Member
        • Dec 2003
        • 19

        #4
        Thanks for the feedback. I will doublecheck tonight when I get home, but I'm pretty sure I set the Denon for large speakers and no sub. Also, good point about the compression. Will check that tonight as well, though I don't recall enabling the compression during my original setup of the Denon.

        FYI, I am also running digi coax out of the Denon and noticing the same lackluster bass response when using the Rotel DACs.

        Unfortunately, as hard as I might try, even a small sub is too big for the time being. In fairness to my wife, the space would look pretty busy with the sub. She was also pretty cool about adding the CDM9nts a couple of years ago, so I don't want to push my luck. I have considered an in-wall sub, but probably not going to happen for a variety of reasons right now.

        Thanks for the ideas. Any additional thoughts would be much appreciated as well.

        Regards.

        Comment

        • Kevin D
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Oct 2002
          • 4601

          #5
          I've tried running my CDM9's in pure stereo before, they're just not that good in the bass department. I've had a RB1090 on them, it's not a power issue..

          Kevin D.

          Comment

          • Skip
            Junior Member
            • Dec 2003
            • 19

            #6
            Originally posted by Kevin D
            I've tried running my CDM9's in pure stereo before, they're just not that good in the bass department. I've had a RB1090 on them, it's not a power issue..

            Kevin D.

            I was afraid this might be the case. I was hoping for some magic tweak to make it all better. Oh well. Given that a sub is out, I guess my options are to: 1) stick with my current setup and enjoy it the way it is (it's certainly not bad, just not what I expected for the amount of money I invested); 2) sell the B&Ws and get a new pair of speakers with a little more oomph; or 3) install an in-wall sub?

            Comment

            • Navin R. Johnso
              Member
              • Apr 2006
              • 38

              #7
              Originally posted by Skip
              I was afraid this might be the case. I was hoping for some magic tweak to make it all better. Oh well. Given that a sub is out, I guess my options are to: 1) stick with my current setup and enjoy it the way it is (it's certainly not bad, just not what I expected for the amount of money I invested); 2) sell the B&Ws and get a new pair of speakers with a little more oomph; or 3) install an in-wall sub?
              4) Invest in a small blue box at Tiffany then get a sub!

              Comment

              • GregLett
                Senior Member
                • May 2005
                • 753

                #8
                Listen to the XT4's, they have alot of bass.
                Greg

                Comment

                • Skip
                  Junior Member
                  • Dec 2003
                  • 19

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Navin R. Johnso
                  4) Invest in a small blue box at Tiffany then get a sub!

                  Funny! I showed this post to my wife and she said it's going to take a lot more than one little blue box.

                  Just curious, what's the smallest decent sub out there? Ideallly, it would be something long and skinny that I could lay horizontally under my media stand, which is only a few inches high.

                  It would be great to avoid swapping out the CDM9s if at all possible.

                  Comment

                  • Iggurk
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2006
                    • 114

                    #10
                    Hello!

                    Use http://www.ceraball.com/ under your amplifier and source (and pre amp too), you will be impressed by the bass improvement, just unbelievable.

                    Power quality is also to consider, a very good power cord also improve a lot.

                    Regards
                    Yves

                    Comment

                    • Club1820
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2006
                      • 269

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Skip
                      Just curious, what's the smallest decent sub out there? Ideallly, it would be something long and skinny that I could lay horizontally under my media stand, which is only a few inches high.

                      It would be great to avoid swapping out the CDM9s if at all possible.

                      Skip, why dont you post pictures of your setup and room so we can see what you have to work with?
                      Rotel 1068, Rotel 1060, Rotel 1055, Rotel 1095, Rotel 956, Rotel RLC-1040, M&K VX-860 Sub, Whatmough M30s, Squeezebox 3

                      Comment

                      • Skip
                        Junior Member
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 19

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Club1820
                        Skip, why dont you post pictures of your setup and room so we can see what you have to work with?

                        Here's a quick pic of the family room.
                        Attached Files

                        Comment

                        • BassThatHz
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2006
                          • 153

                          #13
                          I assume you didn't do something silly like wire them out of phase.

                          When you compared it to your car, were you using the same song and at a similar volume level?

                          One thing you should be aware of is that a car has a much smaller air volume than a room, and as such the relative displacement must increase to reach equivalent sound pressures.

                          You might want to toe-in the front speakers a touch to focus the sound into a central area.

                          I wouldn't say it would make it more busy, but from looking at this image I can't imagine any subwoofer you could place up front without drawing attention to it and not cause the rest of your gear to misalign.

                          Can you provide a picture of the listening position; perhaps you can hide a really good/small subwoofer like the Velodyne HGS-10 behind a chair or a table?

                          Also, have to tried to play a tone sweep and walk around the room to see if it’s a room boundary problem you are having? Sometimes adding some acoustic panels or soft furniture can fix the problem to some degree.

                          Comment

                          • qm456
                            Junior Member
                            • Dec 2006
                            • 10

                            #14
                            AXIOM M60s

                            Comment

                            • chinets
                              Senior Member
                              • Jun 2005
                              • 855

                              #15
                              My suggestion is to hide 2 ASW 855 under the couch, and the Mrs. would not find them :W !! :rofl:

                              Comment

                              • Navy
                                Junior Member
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 13

                                #16
                                Skip=> as Narvin R. Johnson said go check B&W PV-1. You'll be surpised with it's musical ablities anu your Wife won't even notice it. Just kidding... My B&W PV-1 is very happy standing on a case well above the sweet spot. If you don't know what it is you will confuse it with a silver basket ball.

                                Comment

                                • Iggurk
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jun 2006
                                  • 114

                                  #17
                                  Hello!

                                  Start to use good spikes on your front speakers, that will improve the bass.

                                  Comment

                                  • GregLett
                                    Senior Member
                                    • May 2005
                                    • 753

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Iggurk
                                    Hello!

                                    Start to use good spikes on your front speakers, that will improve the bass.
                                    I would also add thatyou should place them on a piece of Granite tile, that would also improve the sound. Right now all your bass is going right into the floor.
                                    Greg

                                    Comment

                                    • RobP
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2004
                                      • 4747

                                      #19
                                      Are we talking about the lack of quanity here or quality of bass?
                                      Robert P. 8)

                                      AKA "Soundgravy"

                                      Comment

                                      • Skip
                                        Junior Member
                                        • Dec 2003
                                        • 19

                                        #20
                                        Thanks for all of the responses.

                                        I'll try the toe-in again, but have done it in the past without great improvement. I'll also check the wiring again for phase issue, though I'm pretty sure it is not a problem.

                                        Haven't thought of spikes. Do they make that much of a difference. Also, would the speakers be unstable (i.e., would they be easier for my toddler to knock over)?

                                        I'll see if I can take a picture of the listening position, but the problem isn't space in other parts of the room, it's a wiring issue. When we moved in had some in-ceilings installed for rears so we wouldn't have to deal with wires running across the room. Should have done that for a sub too then, but missed the chance. Now I think we really would prefer not to start rewiring again to install a sub.

                                        Good question, Soundgravy. I think I would describe it as quantity. I find that bass is generally fainter than it should be. Recognizing there is a big difference, but I have a set of powered Adam studio monitors (nearfealds) in my basement. The bass is not boomy, but way more noticeable than on my more expensive B&W/Rotel setup. With the Rotel/B&W I have to strain to hear detail the bass line.

                                        FWIW, I the bass seems better and more acceptable when watching DVDs. The problem is worst with 2ch.

                                        Thanks again!

                                        Comment

                                        • Iggurk
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jun 2006
                                          • 114

                                          #21
                                          Hello!

                                          Spikes improve a lot the sound, especially the bass that are less boomy and more detailed. That's the first thing to do IMHO, next better feet for electronics.

                                          You can try soundcare superspikes, they are really good for the price and won't destroy your wood ground.

                                          I've tried to put granite plate below the speakers, sound worse in my case, removed them very quickly.

                                          Did you try to move a bit the speakers?

                                          I've obtained best result by aligning the speakers with the listening position, I only see a small part the inner side. yours are perfectly parallel if I look at the picture.

                                          To have more bass put speakers closer to the wall (do you have rear or front air exhaust? check if no foam inside).

                                          Don't forget one thing, the cleanest the bass are the less you will notice them, that doesn't mean that you have less bass, they are just better sounding.

                                          yves

                                          Comment

                                          • RobP
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2004
                                            • 4747

                                            #22
                                            Hey Skip,

                                            If you go the spikes route, I would recommend paying a little extra and getting sound anchor stands for them, The bass quality would be vastly improved even over plain spikes, plus they would be more stable.They may also help improve the level as well, your not wasting the energy into the floor. Now from what I read you are using the Dennon in 2 channel mode and the Rotel in HT mode, and you are happy with the bass for HT. Just for kicks, run 2 channel off of the Rotel and see if the Bass improves in 2 Channel.

                                            Another thought too, have you pulled the speakers out from the walls just a bit to see what effect that has?

                                            If all else fails, you could have a subwoofer built that could match the console, maybe your wife would like that idea? :huh:
                                            Robert P. 8)

                                            AKA "Soundgravy"

                                            Comment

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