5 channel Rotel Power amp?

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  • voxy
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2005
    • 113

    5 channel Rotel Power amp?

    Hello all

    Does anyone knows if Rotel would design one for existing upgraders?
    I am looking to get a 500watters of ICEpowered ASP modules to replace the RMB1075. I need one single box. I believe this would be the upgrade most of us is looking for since the 1077's 100w is a downgrade (in power ) if I take this path.

    Current available ones are JR and PSaudio and the RB1092 & 91 monos takes up too much space.

    Lets have a show of hands..
  • Andrew M Ward
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2005
    • 717

    #2
    Originally posted by voxy
    Hello all

    Does anyone knows if Rotel would design one for existing upgraders?
    I am looking to get a 500watters of ICEpowered ASP modules to replace the RMB1075. I need one single box. I believe this would be the upgrade most of us is looking for since the 1077's 100w is a downgrade (in power ) if I take this path.

    Current available ones are JR and PSaudio and the RB1092 & 91 monos takes up too much space.

    Lets have a show of hands..
    I would consider the RMB1077 to ba a power upgrade from the RMB1075

    why?

    I would use the 1077 on any speaker made (ever)
    and I can't say that at all about the 1075

    in fact (as I've said over and over) I sat and listened to the 1077 hooked up to Qty. 5 of the largest Dynaudio speaker made and it drove them to the cleanest and loedest volume of any amplifier in the store... period!!!

    The 1077 has unlimited power, if Rotel lied and said it was 500 X 7 nobody would flinch... it can drive any (7) speakers to any volume any time anywhere

    just give it a demo, you'll crap 8)

    Comment

    • voxy
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2005
      • 113

      #3
      Hey Andrew, I had audition the 1077 and I am sure it can drive most speakers.

      But somehow I still prefer higher wattage for longer keep. I am quite sure if Rotel builts one with the 500ASP modules, a lot of people from the mid to hi-end would jump ship. Esp upgraders who currently have 5channel setup and needs more efficient power....

      I think the problem of RMB1077 is really a matter of perception. People still associate value of the amps base on the watts it gives out.

      Comment

      • global
        Junior Member
        • Sep 2006
        • 16

        #4
        Talked to my dealer the other day and he said that all power amps will be replaced by the new ones after new years what that means we will have to wait and see maybe a new 1095 will pop out he also mentioned some of the specs on the new rsp1099 iteresting indeed .

        Comment

        • style
          Super Senior Member
          • Feb 2006
          • 1562

          #5
          rmb1077

          PERSONALY I FIND RMB 1077 BETTER AS RMB1075,

          THE NEW TECNO IS "ALL IN" AND 7 X 110 AT THE TEST IS SURE A PLUS POINT.
          OK, RMB 1077 & RB1092 (2X500W. @8 OHM) FOR L+R IST THE PERFECT SETUP. PRE RSP1098( THE 1068 TOO) I FIND REALLY A GOOD APPARATE,
          NEXT GENERATION FROM ROTEL (1069 & 1099??) DON'T PAY MONEY/POSSIBILITY. I BUY BETTER A SEPARATE SCALER (MORE IN&OUT, BETTER CHIP&COMPONENT)
          IDEAL: ROTEL RSP1068/98 + RMB 1077 (MY COURRENTSET) + RB1092 + SCALER WITH A HD FULL PLASMA 50" IS FOR "NORMALY UTENT" THE SUPER SOLUTION.

          thank's Omar :T

          Comment

          • Clepto
            Senior Member
            • Feb 2006
            • 292

            #6
            From what I hear, the new rotel 5-channel will be 5x100, basically 2 less modules than the 1077.

            Comment

            • Martinf
              Member
              • Oct 2003
              • 73

              #7
              >> The 1077 has unlimited power, <<

              No way -- It certainly doesn't have unlimited power. The reason it sounds "louder" to you, is that rather than conventional 'square-wave' clipping (when transistor output voltage tries to exceed the input voltage), the -1077, which is a Pulse-Width-Modulated (PWM) amp, will simply give you a progressively compressed output signal with less dynamic range.

              It is common knowledge that studios dynamically compress rock music to make it sound "louder" on systems with limited dynamic range.

              I'm keeping my -1075 for music.
              I'll be back!

              Comment

              • Nolan B
                Super Senior Member
                • Sep 2005
                • 1792

                #8
                Originally posted by Martinf
                >> The 1077 has unlimited power, <<

                No way -- It certainly doesn't have unlimited power. The reason it sounds "louder" to you, is that rather than conventional 'square-wave' clipping (when transistor output voltage tries to exceed the input voltage), the -1077, which is a Pulse-Width-Modulated (PWM) amp, will simply give you a progressively compressed output signal with less dynamic range.

                It is common knowledge that studios dynamically compress rock music to make it sound "louder" on systems with limited dynamic range.

                I'm keeping my -1075 for music.

                LOL..you really dont like the 1077. Have you even heard it yet? The 1077 blows the 1075 out of the water. How can so many people be wrong and you be the only right one?

                By the way when using a SPL reader the 1077 does go lauder (with quality) then the 1075.The may both reach the same db level, but the 1077 is much better then 1075 at those levels. Thats a fact.

                Comment

                • Azeke
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Mar 2003
                  • 2123

                  #9
                  Analogue vs Digital gentlemen. Who wins the battle? Who wins the war?

                  These are the questions I would ponder. Perhaps it boils down to your own personal preference (by listening), or perhaps not, if you base your decision on theory vs. the facts. You must utimately decide, what is best for you.

                  Peace and blessings,

                  Azeke

                  Comment

                  • mjb
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 1483

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Martinf
                    >> The 1077 has unlimited power, <<

                    No way -- It certainly doesn't have unlimited power. The reason it sounds "louder" to you, is that rather than conventional 'square-wave' clipping (when transistor output voltage tries to exceed the input voltage), the -1077, which is a Pulse-Width-Modulated (PWM) amp, will simply give you a progressively compressed output signal with less dynamic range.
                    OK, perhaps not unlimited power, but certainly more than enough for most living rooms. A Pulse-Width-Modulated signal has by its very nature a constant amplitude, so any compression would be a product of poor modulation, not power stage clipping. In fact, at the onset of clipping the amp module will mute.

                    A RMB-1077 comprises pre-assembled ICEpower modules, 5x ICEpower250A and 2x ICEpower250ASP (The 2 ASP modules additionally provide power for the A modules). The module data sheets are very detailed, and are really worth studying. The hardest thing is to accept is that the RMB-1077 is tiny - but it works, and extremely well.
                    - Mike

                    Main System:
                    B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                    Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                    Comment

                    • chrispy35
                      Senior Member
                      • Feb 2004
                      • 198

                      #11
                      It says "soft clipping" right in the features section on the icepower page. I believe that is what Martinf was hinting at in his original post. When the icepower module input is overdriven (output is soft-clipping), the result is compression.

                      Chris P.

                      Comment

                      • voxy
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2005
                        • 113

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mjb
                        OK, perhaps not unlimited power, but certainly more than enough for most living rooms. A Pulse-Width-Modulated signal has by its very nature a constant amplitude, so any compression would be a product of poor modulation, not power stage clipping. In fact, at the onset of clipping the amp module will mute.

                        A RMB-1077 comprises pre-assembled ICEpower modules, 5x ICEpower250A and 2x ICEpower250ASP (The 2 ASP modules additionally provide power for the A modules). The module data sheets are very detailed, and are really worth studying. The hardest thing is to accept is that the RMB-1077 is tiny - but it works, and extremely well.
                        Precisely... why can't Rotel put in the 2x500ASP & 3x500A for a high powered 250w x 5 @8ohms? This would be really nice upgrade for a long time.... and slot in nicely between the RMB1077 & RB 1092

                        I think this thread is not about RMB1077 bec I think this little gem is a perfect example of price performance for its segment. But there are certainly a lot of us out there craving for higher powered Class D amps to fit into our requirements, something from Rotel to compete against the likes of Jeff Roland MC606.... which I believe uses all ASP modules to drive every channel.

                        I really hope there is a chance we could see this and for the time being I will keep my 1075. To be honest The difference between 1077 & 1075 is little IMO and therefore I am looking for one with bigger improvements.

                        Comment

                        • Martinf
                          Member
                          • Oct 2003
                          • 73

                          #13
                          Vancouver wrote: (a) >> By the way when using a SPL reader the 1077 does go lauder (with quality) then the 1075. They may both reach the same db level but the 1077 is much better then 1075 at those levels <<

                          I think what is coming across here is that you do notice a difference, and you prefer what you hear -- but I can assure you there is no magic in the ICE. Sure, to you the ICE may be "better". That’s your subjective opinion. But I can tell you what is happening:-

                          At high signal levels, the pulse density trends to: 1111111111111 — i.e. maximum density (as opposed to say a bitstream, like, 10101001001100011100 which is obviously less dense). What it does effectively is to smooth-out the waveform — which sounds "nicer" to you, as it chops off all the spikes. But it actually makes the sound inaccurate.

                          and mjb wrote: >> A Pulse-Width-Modulated signal has by its very nature a constant amplitude <<

                          Actually, the amplitude of the sound wave (as opposed to the bitstream itself) does vary, and it is determined by the density of the bitstream. The more "1"s, the greater the overall density. But you reach a point when you cannot have any more "1"s — at which point the sound will be compressed/smoothed-out, and you will lose transient detail. That is what I’m talking about.

                          Anyway, I’m not the only person who has issues with PWM signal processing. B.t.w. There are plenty of reports from other people who notice the loss of detail in the -1077’s (particularly in the treble) compared with any of Rotel’s analog amps.
                          I'll be back!

                          Comment

                          • Nolan B
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Sep 2005
                            • 1792

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Martinf
                            Vancouver wrote: (a) >> By the way when using a SPL reader the 1077 does go lauder (with quality) then the 1075. They may both reach the same db level but the 1077 is much better then 1075 at those levels <<

                            I think what is coming across here is that you do notice a difference, and you prefer what you hear -- but I can assure you there is no magic in the ICE. Sure, to you the ICE may be "better". That’s your subjective opinion. But I can tell you what is happening:-

                            At high signal levels, the pulse density trends to: 1111111111111 — i.e. maximum density (as opposed to say a bitstream, like, 10101001001100011100 which is obviously less dense). What it does effectively is to smooth-out the waveform — which sounds "nicer" to you, as it chops off all the spikes. But it actually makes the sound inaccurate.

                            and mjb wrote: >> A Pulse-Width-Modulated signal has by its very nature a constant amplitude <<

                            Actually, the amplitude of the sound wave (as opposed to the bitstream itself) does vary, and it is determined by the density of the bitstream. The more "1"s, the greater the overall density. But you reach a point when you cannot have any more "1"s — at which point the sound will be compressed/smoothed-out, and you will lose transient detail. That is what I’m talking about.

                            Anyway, I’m not the only person who has issues with PWM signal processing. B.t.w. There are plenty of reports from other people who notice the loss of detail in the -1077’s (particularly in the treble) compared with any of Rotel’s analog amps.
                            I think whats happening is to much is being put into what is technically happening and no enough is being put into how it actually sounds. Of course there will be some (very few) people who report the negative. The vast majority of reviews I have read (and I read almost everyone I could find online) found the 1077 to be exceptional and in no way limited by its size or the fact it uses ICE power.

                            My dealer has all of rotel's multi amps, and a few stereo amps along with the 1068 and 1098 all in the same rack. You can litterally switch between components by pressing a button and get a very good feel for the differences. IMO the 1077 is the best amp for multichannel (music and movies) that rotel has.

                            how many hours have you put in listening to the 1077?

                            Comment

                            • Martinf
                              Member
                              • Oct 2003
                              • 73

                              #15
                              >> I think whats happening is to much is being put into what is technically happening and no enough is being put into how it actually sounds. <<

                              The amp should be totally transparent. In and of itself, it should not have any "sound". It's only job is to amplify and deliver an electrical signal accurately to the speakers.

                              But if the amp "sweetens" things up, then it's simply adding "noise".

                              I prefer to hear everything -- warts and all.
                              I'll be back!

                              Comment

                              • PewterTA
                                Moderator
                                • Nov 2004
                                • 2901

                                #16
                                Then you should definitely get rid of the 1075, it definitely "sweetens" things.
                                Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                -Dan

                                Comment

                                • Martinf
                                  Member
                                  • Oct 2003
                                  • 73

                                  #17
                                  >> Then you should definitely get rid of the 1075, it definitely "sweetens" things <<

                                  Not according to lab measurements. Flat freq response up to 100kHz (and beyond?) And good S/N ratio. Of course there are amps that are better in terms of S/N than the -1075, but they are all much more expensive, and of course they are analog!
                                  I'll be back!

                                  Comment

                                  • cfrizz
                                    Member
                                    • Apr 2006
                                    • 51

                                    #18
                                    I'm with Voxy on this subject! I listened to the 1077 & the 1092 as well as the 1095. Compared to the 1092 & 1095, the 1077 lost out to my hearing.

                                    I too wanted a 5 channel 500wpc digital, but I couldn't wait for Rotel to finally get around to making one, so I got a Sunfire 405wpc 5 channel amp that only weighs 3 pounds more than my 40lb 2 channel Parasound!

                                    As far as I'm concerned Rotel did this intro to digital amps all wrong! The people who buy their products are serious about their music & know what a difference high power makes. They should have started with 200wpc & up not 100wpc. But that's just my opinion.
                                    Cathy
                                    ---------
                                    Sunfire TGP III, Sunfire Cinema Grande 405wpc 5 channel Amplifier, :B Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Onkyo TA2600 Tape Deck, Pioneer Elite 47-A DVD, Sony 32" XBR TV, Sony PS-454 Turntable, Polk RTA-8T Main Speakers, Boston 920 Center Channel, Boston PV600 Sub Woofer, Polk FXi-3 Surround Speakers

                                    Comment

                                    • voxy
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Jan 2005
                                      • 113

                                      #19
                                      An exerpt from diyaudio on the difference of UCD modules & ICEpower. Dan Fraser wrote this and gave his comments while working on these amps for his company.

                                      " have a pair each of UcD180 and UcD400 which Jan Peter kindly sent me for evaluation. I find both the UcD and ICE power units to have an excellent sound quality. However, they do NOT sound the same. Both excellent but distinct.

                                      The UcD amps sound closer to an excellent class AB amplifier while the ICE sound slightly "tubey".

                                      I think this is partly because the UcD is a half bridge design and does an excellent job simulating an excellent class AB transistor design. Basically a near perfect reproduction of the audio in as clean and essentially unbiased sense. Where the amplifier imparts very little of its own sound in the signal. Nominally the goal we are striving for. Not perfect but as close as the musical truth all but the most esoteric high end amplifiers of say 1990 could give. And with a lot more efficiency and in a much smaller package. And available to the DIY community at a reasonable price.

                                      On the other hand, the ICE Power is a full bridge design and seems to come closer to simulating the sound of a very, clean tube amplifier because the bridged output stage does a great job in cancelling out harmonics like a tube amp does. As well, their soft limiting circuit makes the sound, when clipped, more like the sound of a tube amp in clipping. Imagine the sound of a tube amp would give if you had a perfect output transformer with zero loss, no hysteresis and near perfect frequency response. Again very good and the sound that many people are looking for. However, for the small quantity user, essentially unobtainable.

                                      And for those who might ask, I do work for an OEM with access to all these unobtainable OEM products, the agreements with the module makers do not allow resales other than in manufactured products. Service spares are on an exchange basis only. SO please, don't ask to buy these from me. I only run the engineering department. I don't make policy.

                                      As for the Zobel networks, in the ICE 500A and 1000A, in early experimenting, I did blow the cap off the TO-220 4 ohm resistor in the zobel network of a couple of these before I learned to NOT to sustained high frequency testing. These amplifiers are for audio only, not for sine waves. The problem is not the amplifier but on the physical size. To get the module under 100mm square, this means the zobel resistor must be smaller. They sized it for music. To sustain a 15KHz full power sine wave, would require a far larger part, one that is not necessary for audio work. This is called designng the product to fit the application. Do not fault the product for being able to blow up the resistor in the zobel network by driving it at full power with a sine wave over 10KHz. We don't listen to sine waves. We listen to a complex signal woth a varied spectral content, with less energy in the high end than the low, called "music".

                                      And yes, any product will make noise if you put your finger on the input. Some may even oscillate. That's the price you pay for having good transient response. My recommendation is to not have the inputs floating in the air. When nothing is connected anyway, leave it turned off. Turn it on only when its all connected up."



                                      Martinf, I think the ICEpower are good amps compare to the Class AB base on the design and Rotel had redesign their modules to eliminate grounding for those ground loop issues associated with Class D. The only problem is I want more power for long term keep. :T

                                      Comment

                                      • Nolan B
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Sep 2005
                                        • 1792

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Martinf
                                        >> I think whats happening is to much is being put into what is technically happening and no enough is being put into how it actually sounds. <<

                                        The amp should be totally transparent. In and of itself, it should not have any "sound". It's only job is to amplify and deliver an electrical signal accurately to the speakers.

                                        But if the amp "sweetens" things up, then it's simply adding "noise".

                                        I prefer to hear everything -- warts and all.
                                        Martin I am curious about a couple of things. Can you please describe the listening and testing you have done with the 1077? Personally I have listened and compared the 1077 wih other rotel amps in a controlled enviroment. In all your posts against the 1077 I have yet to hear where your opinions come from besides quoting lab reports.

                                        What did you listen to? where? and compared to it to what?

                                        Comment

                                        • Martinf
                                          Member
                                          • Oct 2003
                                          • 73

                                          #21
                                          I use high resolution sources (DVD-Audios -- I have over 150 of these), whereas most people will use a -1077 with DVD-Vs, to play back Dolby Digital, or at best, DTS. Therefore, with DVD-Vs (and CDs played through DPLII), the -1077 should be absolutely fine, since the specs of the -1077 are optimzed for the bandwidth [limited up to 20kHz] & mediocre dynamics of Dolby & DTS, and DPLII processed CDs.

                                          HOWEVER, the specs of the -1077 are NOT optimized for high-rez sources! :-(
                                          Indeed, I've read it myself in a technical paper about the ICE modules that 20Khz was the upper target. Dynamic range is also pitched at Redbook CD quality.

                                          In short, it does not meet my spec. When I audition an amp (or anything else) I first define the spec I want, then I go out and shortlist several components which meet that spec. Then I make a final decision based in price/performance. It's as simple as that.

                                          Same with hiring a new employee -- you should only invite those to interview who have the right qualifications -- listed on their CV.
                                          I'll be back!

                                          Comment

                                          • Nolan B
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Sep 2005
                                            • 1792

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Martinf
                                            I use high resolution sources (DVD-Audios -- I have over 150 of these), whereas most people will use a -1077 with DVD-Vs, to play back Dolby Digital, or at best, DTS. Therefore, with DVD-Vs (and CDs played through DPLII), the -1077 should be absolutely fine, since the specs of the -1077 are optimzed for the bandwidth [limited up to 20kHz] & mediocre dynamics of Dolby & DTS, and DPLII processed CDs.

                                            HOWEVER, the specs of the -1077 are NOT optimized for high-rez sources! :-(
                                            Indeed, I've read it myself in a technical paper about the ICE modules that 20Khz was the upper target. Dynamic range is also pitched at Redbook CD quality.

                                            In short, it does not meet my spec. When I audition an amp (or anything else) I first define the spec I want, then I go out and shortlist several components which meet that spec. Then I make a final decision based in price/performance. It's as simple as that.

                                            Same with hiring a new employee -- you should only invite those to interview who have the right qualifications -- listed on their CV.

                                            ok, so just so I understand you. You have logged a total of 0 hours of listening to the 1077?

                                            Speaker specs can look similar with major differences in sound. Do you use this same technique for speakers?

                                            I think its reasonable to assume that your opinion about the 1077 is less valid then those who have listened to it.

                                            one more point. I listened to DVD A (often) with my 1067 and now with my 1077. The 1077 is much better.

                                            p.s. many people with poor resumes start great businesses on their own.

                                            Comment

                                            • Nolan B
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Sep 2005
                                              • 1792

                                              #23
                                              id like to add one more point since you made mention to High res listening. 90% of my HT use is with Hi Res lisetning with DD Plus and TrueHD. I had a 1067 for about 3 months and now the 1077 for about 1.5 months of listening to these formats.

                                              I can tell you without a doubt the 1077 produces a much better sound for high res listening then the 1067 (which is very comparible to the 1075 when in bypass).

                                              Comment

                                              • voxy
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jan 2005
                                                • 113

                                                #24
                                                Well... not sure I understand fully but the spec for the 250ASP has a bandwidth range of 5Hz to 80Khz. Isn't this sufficient? It is inaudible....

                                                Comment

                                                • Martinf
                                                  Member
                                                  • Oct 2003
                                                  • 73

                                                  #25
                                                  OK -- here's what Soundgravy said on this forum last year:-

                                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                  >> Well Guys, I went to my dealer today and picked up a new DVD player, while I was there I seen the new RMB-1077 in the display rack, of course I had to indulge myself. I listened to the amp paired up with a pair of B&W 803S's. Now before I start, let me say that I really, really wanted to like this amp, but after the music started I found my grin going to a frown. The top end sounded really compressed with a very narrow soundstage width. I listened to Sara K, which I know really well, the light airy recording sounded closed in and her voice sounded boxy in a way.
                                                  Now in the bass department the 1077 did really well, it was very controlled and tight which I liked really well. The amp had been played for quite sometime according to the salesman, so break in period was not a factor.

                                                  I kept wondering if it was the room, the speakers, anything. I just could not believe what I was hearing, taking the great reveiws that it received here made me think it was something else. So I asked if I could listen to another amplifer on the same speakers, he hooked up the Rotel RSX1067 to the speakers and started the track over again, the problem with the upper end was gone, the recording sounded just as good as it does in my setup at home. The soundstage was wide and deep again and her voice sounded natural. Now in the lower frequencies they were not as tight and defined as with the 1077.

                                                  Overall my thoughts on the performance on the 1077 are a mixed bag, I loved the bass but hated the upper end. And for now, my 1065 does a much better job for the money in the 100w per channel catagory. <<

                                                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                                                  NB: I've read a LOT of reports on the -1077.

                                                  Basically this is what comes across:-

                                                  (a) Great bass;
                                                  (b) good control of difficult speaker impedance loads;
                                                  (c) cool operation;
                                                  (d) the way it clips is easier on the ears;
                                                  BUT (e) -- Treble lacks the high-end clarity and detail of good analog amps.

                                                  The last one is the big spoiler for me, as I listen a lot to very detailed classical & jazz music recorded in 96kHz / 24 bit. Live triangle hits recorded at 96kHz are the big ear-opener with high-end reproduction. (Listen to "Latin Jazz Trio" by AIX recods on audiophile DVD-A.)

                                                  Fortunately, my analog amp lets all the detail shine though.
                                                  I'll be back!

                                                  Comment

                                                  • bleeding ears
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                    • 435

                                                    #26
                                                    I thought most of us folk could not hear anything above about 13-15khz anyway, so what does it all matter ?

                                                    Personal preference, the room, speaker choice, and other factors also contribute to the final sound.

                                                    Incidentally, do any of you guys own speakers that can go way above 20khz ? and if so it would be interesting to know what they are.

                                                    Hmmm, just thought I would throw a few more points in to discuss.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • obiwan
                                                      Member
                                                      • Jul 2005
                                                      • 42

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Andrew M Ward

                                                      in fact (as I've said over and over) I sat and listened to the 1077 hooked up to Qty. 5 of the largest Dynaudio speaker made and it drove them to the cleanest and loedest volume of any amplifier in the store... period!!!
                                                      What Dynaudio's were they Andrew? I have the large Contour S5.4's which I'm probably selling. I think I'll keep my Dynaudio Special 25's as I've already disconnected the drivers from the crossover and bought a DEQX to biamp them using my current mix of Rotel and Bel Canto amps. Been thinking though of making the whole set up simpler and get an RMB1077, use 4 of its channels to biamp the Special 25's and use the remaining 3 channels for centre and rears. I've just been worried about whether the RMB1077 is going to be transparent enough for the Dyns.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • wolfgang
                                                        Member
                                                        • Jul 2006
                                                        • 75

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by bleeding ears
                                                        I thought most of us folk could not hear anything above about 13-15khz anyway, so what does it all matter ?

                                                        Personal preference, the room, speaker choice, and other factors also contribute to the final sound.

                                                        Incidentally, do any of you guys own speakers that can go way above 20khz ? and if so it would be interesting to know what they are.

                                                        Hmmm, just thought I would throw a few more points in to discuss.
                                                        That is about right for most humans ears. However, there appears to be some influence to the preception within the normal range and it have been demonstrated with some blind listening tests. I could look up the paper again by googling but you could probably try it yourself.

                                                        I think some speakers with Scanspeak tweeters goes to 35KHz at most. There were 2 speakers that Sony released a few years ago. The famous one was the SONY SS-M9ED with Frequency Response 26Hz-100kHz.

                                                        The other was a two way standmount . The later was marketed for UK£1200 but seen one exchanged hand in a UK forum for a lot less then that. Interest thing was everyone who heard them liked it very much but no one dare to buy it probably because of the Sony label. Hifi is a funny world.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • bleeding ears
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                          • 435

                                                          #29
                                                          Wolfgang, nice looking Sony speakers.

                                                          I am not familiar with these at all, but they do look great.

                                                          I personally dont have a problem with Sony, in fact I own a sony multichannel amp and it is a great buy.

                                                          Most brands seem to have their cheap stuff and their more expensive stuff, so I guess the Hi Fi equipment you end up with is what you consider to be the best sounding within your budget. It just seems that nearly everyone has some sony gear somewhere and it is usually not expensive, so most people immediately think it is junk.

                                                          As for tweeters that go to 100khz and whether they are necessary, well I guess if they sound better, why not get them. That is of course provided the are worth the extra money. Scanspeaks and Ribbons and the like are not the cheapest tweeters around.

                                                          Depending on the room etc perhaps it may be possible that these tweeters get a bit much. In fact I read a review on some Dali Helicons that eluded to the ribbon tweeters, in conjunction with the dome tweeters, getting a bit bright sounding. Hmmm, it seems that nothing is ever perfect in this game.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Geoff Gunnell
                                                            Member
                                                            • Nov 2006
                                                            • 59

                                                            #30
                                                            One of the larger mistakes we've made in audio (and easy to see how we made it) is to take basic human audiometry data on pure tones and say that is the upper limit of the passband for audio information transfer.
                                                            I don't want to bring that argument to this thread, but I ask of those of you with enquiring minds to do this: give us one octave of "protected space" until we CAN quantify this better. If we assume that we need a passband of up to 40kHz clear, a whole lot of other audio things start to make sense: The subjective failure of the 22kHz PCM/Nyquist limit, the subjective success of tweeters with extension above 30kHz (B&W, Vifa XT25), and... and perhaps the need to try assuming an additional octave of HF in our digital amp designs.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • voxy
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Jan 2005
                                                              • 113

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by obiwan
                                                              What Dynaudio's were they Andrew? I have the large Contour S5.4's which I'm probably selling. I think I'll keep my Dynaudio Special 25's as I've already disconnected the drivers from the crossover and bought a DEQX to biamp them using my current mix of Rotel and Bel Canto amps. Been thinking though of making the whole set up simpler and get an RMB1077, use 4 of its channels to biamp the Special 25's and use the remaining 3 channels for centre and rears. I've just been worried about whether the RMB1077 is going to be transparent enough for the Dyns.
                                                              Hi, I believe it should sound good and a safe bet with the 1077. Just for info the front 2 channel are using ASP modules and the rest of the 5 channels are on ASX modules. Make sure you connect the front speakers using the L/R channel on 1077 on the HF and the using the spare channel for LF. This will bring the best out of your front speakers.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • obiwan
                                                                Member
                                                                • Jul 2005
                                                                • 42

                                                                #32
                                                                Here I am still procrastinating. Also a little drunk, but that's beside the point.

                                                                Why Voxy, or should I say, what Voxy is the theory behind making sure that if you biamp your mains with the RMB 1077 that you should use the ASP modules on the tweeters rather than the woofers?

                                                                Comment

                                                                • mjb
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                  • 1483

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by obiwan
                                                                  Why Voxy, or should I say, what Voxy is the theory behind making sure that if you biamp your mains with the RMB 1077 that you should use the ASP modules on the tweeters rather than the woofers?
                                                                  I assume because the ASP modules have meaty on-board power supplies, which also supply power to the sans-psu ASX modules.
                                                                  - Mike

                                                                  Main System:
                                                                  B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                                                  Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Ferres
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Jan 2007
                                                                    • 158

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by obiwan
                                                                    Here I am still procrastinating. Also a little drunk, but that's beside the point.

                                                                    Why Voxy, or should I say, what Voxy is the theory behind making sure that if you biamp your mains with the RMB 1077 that you should use the ASP modules on the tweeters rather than the woofers?
                                                                    I think it causes sibilance if done the other way. I may have done so before when I was noticing sibilance in my earlier configuration. :E

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • obiwan
                                                                      Member
                                                                      • Jul 2005
                                                                      • 42

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Thanks guys,

                                                                      I thinking the 1077 is perhaps the way to go afterall. I've going around in circles trying to decide between Bel Canto, Channel islands, Murano etc, but the idea of having a one box power amp solution is very appealing.

                                                                      Not to mention the recent review in TAS issue 170.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • hifiguymi
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Mar 2007
                                                                        • 1532

                                                                        #36
                                                                        obiwan, I've had the RMB-1077 at home running my 804S's and at my store running everything from 600 Series B&W, Paradigm Reference, and 800 Series B&W's and it is a great amp. It's the best multi channel amp I've heard in its price range.

                                                                        Eric

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • obiwan
                                                                          Member
                                                                          • Jul 2005
                                                                          • 42

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Great to hear Eric. Its just that my main interest is 2 channel, but I will be using 4 of the channels for the stereo front pair, it should be OK.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • rick c
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Aug 2004
                                                                            • 430

                                                                            #38
                                                                            if you guys dont mind,can you explain how a 100x7 amp like the 1077 would out do an amp which is more powerful like 5x150 or 5 x 200.I dont mean to be ignorant but i would really like to know.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • hifiguymi
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Mar 2007
                                                                              • 1532

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by rick c
                                                                              if you guys dont mind,can you explain how a 100x7 amp like the 1077 would out do an amp which is more powerful like 5x150 or 5 x 200.I dont mean to be ignorant but i would really like to know.
                                                                              Sound quality is not directly related to power output. There are plenty of amplifiers that are better built, or have a better design that sound better than an amp with more power. As good as the biggest Rotel is, I don't think it sounds better than a Classe with less power.

                                                                              One of the things that I think helps the RMB-1077 is it's ability to handle almost any load the same. It doesn't seem to flinch at difficult loads.

                                                                              In the end, it comes down to personal taste. Just because it's the best amp I've heard in it's price range, but I have not heard them all by any stretch, doesn't mean it's the best one you've heard.

                                                                              Eric

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • mattburk
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Feb 2003
                                                                                • 248

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Has anyone compared rotel to the ps audio's?
                                                                                I would consider a few of the 1092's, but the 500w ps audios do look good. My first pick right now is the plinius-any coments?

                                                                                My speakers will go from 16Hz-36kHz, so a full range amp is important
                                                                                www.mycstone.com
                                                                                www.coverednow.com
                                                                                www.biarenton.com

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • rick c
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Aug 2004
                                                                                  • 430

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by hifiguymi
                                                                                  Sound quality is not directly related to power output. There are plenty of amplifiers that are better built, or have a better design that sound better than an amp with more power. As good as the biggest Rotel is, I don't think it sounds better than a Classe with less power.

                                                                                  One of the things that I think helps the RMB-1077 is it's ability to handle almost any load the same. It doesn't seem to flinch at difficult loads.

                                                                                  In the end, it comes down to personal taste. Just because it's the best amp I've heard in it's price range, but I have not heard them all by any stretch, doesn't mean it's the best one you've heard.

                                                                                  Eric
                                                                                  i think i understand somewhat.I have a rotel rsx1056 which supposedly should not be used with 4ohm speakers like dynaudio without an amp.I take it that with the 1077 it would more than be up to the task for 4 ohm speakers or any other dificult loads.I was actually looking at used 804's in the future as an esxample.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • mjb
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Mar 2005
                                                                                    • 1483

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    According to Rotel, the RMB-1077 is capable of delivering 100, 200, or 400W of continuous power into 8, 4, or 2 ohms, respectively, all seven channels driven simultaneously. (Rotel’s larger, heavier RMB-1075 and RMB-1095 aren’t rated into 2 ohms at all.)
                                                                                    Source:http://www.hometheatersound.com/equi...l_rmb_1077.htm
                                                                                    - Mike

                                                                                    Main System:
                                                                                    B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                                                                    Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • obiwan
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                      • Jul 2005
                                                                                      • 42

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      This RMB 1077 is looking better all the time.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Ferres
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Jan 2007
                                                                                        • 158

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Just remember that the 1077 requires breakin time to bring out the bass.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • obiwan
                                                                                          Member
                                                                                          • Jul 2005
                                                                                          • 42

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Interesting to see how the bass goes over time. Seeing as I'll be using my DEQX to equalise the woofer anyway it will be interesting to see if a different correction filter would be needed some months later. I can't imagine it changing significantly though.

                                                                                          Comment

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