Pre pro discussion

[Andrew Pratt]

I hope Patrick doesn't mind but here's a picture he took of the new Outlaw pre amp.

Front

Back

(source)

[Andrew Pratt]

From the Outlaw site regarding the features of the new pre amps

Processor/Preamps
We have two units in the works, one that will sell in the $750 to $999 price range, and a second one that will sell at a price to be determined over $1,500. They are being designed separately by two engineering teams, each headed by engineers who were previously responsible for products from some very well known high-end brands.

Though the design platforms of the two products will be different, each will offer the following:

Surround Modes: Dolby Digital, Dolby ProLogicII, DTS, DTS Matrix 6.1, DTS Discrete 6.1, DTS Neo:6, Outlaw Surround 6.1, and a variety of DSP modes.
Inputs/Outputs: Multiple A/V inputs, all with S video, HDTV grade (40 MHz bandwidth) component video switching, multiple optical and coaxial digital audio inputs and digital audio outputs. Preamp outputs and a "7.1 channel direct" input for use with DVD-Audio or as a "CD Direct" input that bypasses the DSP processing. Amplifier trigger and remote IR in/out connections.
Interface and command settings: Innovative, easy to use, on-screen menus and a front panel display. Multiple crossover settings and comprehensive bass management.
Remote control: Backlit, programmable, multi-device remote
Additional features: High quality 192/24 output DACs on both models. The higher priced model will have additional features to enhance the precision of system configuration and to enhance listening enjoyment.
International compatibility: Both units will be available in 120 volt and 230 volt models, or will offer "universal" power supplies.

*According to Outlaw reps it appears the first of the pre amps will be priced at $899 and should be availble around July/August

[psklenar]

> I hope Patrick doesn't mind ...

Not at all. To be honest, considering the apparent interest in these pieces, I'm really rather surprised that I was the first to put pictures of these new Outlaw models up on the web.

Btw, Nice place you've got here. Maybe my head's been in the sand, but I wasn't aware of HTGuide until just now. Oops. {sheepish } Mind if I have a seat and hang around a bit? I promise not to put my shoes up on any of the furniture.

Later,




pat----

email: :<a href="mailtoat@sklenar.info">pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

[Andrew Pratt]

Pat glad to have you around. I know there's going to be a fair bit of interest in these products so lets use this area to talk about them. I'm pretty excited about the features the new pre amp should have.

[Kevin P]

That pre-amp looks nice. It looks like Outlaw has addressed my (and I'm sure many other) folks' concerns and limitations of the 1050, including more inputs, more digital ins, a digital out, component switching, S-video on all the ins, convenience outlets (I miss these on the 1050, and have run out of places to plug things in! )

Plus all the new fangled surround formats (DTS ES Discrete, DPL II, et al.) certainly don't hurt either!

Do we know what the differences are between the two pre-amps yet?

KJP




Official Computer Geek and Techno-Wiz Guru of HTGuide - Visit Tower of Power
My HT Site

[Gregg Loewen]

Hi! Peter and I were discussing the new pre/pro this morning. The new pre amp will be selling for 899 or less. It will have component video switching at 40 megahertz which will support the HD signal without degradation. He is still awaiting to hear more info about this. It will also have as its engine the crystal 43297 chip.

There are no firm plans for a higher end preamp, but it remains a possibility. They are not sure what additional features they could add and at what price point it could be had for.

Gregg

[Andrew Pratt]

well for new features they could add very high quality DAC's for 2 channel, increase the component bandwidth to handle full HDTV and offer a pronto (or pronto like) remote

[Dan Hitchman]

What about a serial port for firmware updates and newer formats?

If there isn't going to be another pre-pro for some time (or possibly not at all) shouldn't there be one on this unit?

How about the type of bass management, DAC's, jitter reduction. etc.?

Dan




Stop the MPAA! They're trying to take away your rights!

[Andrew Pratt]

Dan I thought I heard somewhere that it will be firmware upgradeable and it should have at least as good a bass management system as the existing receiver does.

[Kevin P]

Does anyone know what the "Stereo Bypass" button does? Does it bypass the digital stages like using the 7.1 inputs? If it does, it would be way cool for SACD, especially if it can retain bass management capabilities in this mode (built in ICBM?). SACD in pristine quality AND with my SVS in action, mmmmm...

KJP




Official Computer Geek and Techno-Wiz Guru of HTGuide - Visit Tower of Power
My HT Site

[Andrew Pratt]

Kevin the analog by pass is a big point with me. Actually I'd rather there was an option to completely bypass tone controls andthe DSP's. I'm not sure that bass management can be used and it still be a true analog bypass.

[Doug]

Geesh, I was thinking all they had to do was throw in a 6 pack and I would take 2. You guys are picky!

Welcome you new guys, and hope you didn't get to much sand in your eyes. Thanks on the complement. I am the concept designer of htguide.com. But anyone that knows Mats, my partner, knows he's not only the brains of this operation, but the "man with 2 brains." lol.

As far as feet up on the Furniture, being that I am a single guy, I have no problems with that, but please do use a coaster for your beers.

Sounds like an exciting new product and lots-o-bang for the buck!

Doug





<A HREF="http://www.catcables.com" <IMG SRC="http://www.htguide.com/lexman/other/sm_logo.gif"

[Andrew Pratt]

here's an update on some questions I asked the Outlaws. Please let me know if you have any questions you need answered and I'll see what I can do to get them for you

*It will have at least one 2 channel analog bypass.
*It will most likely ship with a remote very similar to that of the 1050.
*It will use Crystal 192kHz/24 bit DACs on all channels.
*We are currently examining firmware upgradability (most likely through
flash memory).
*It will be available in Sept/Oct for less than $900

[Dan Hitchman]

Thanks for the update Andrew! I nave a few more inquiries I just thought up.

Anybody familiar with the Crystal 24 bit/192 kHz DAC's? Any good? Are they one bit or multibit designs? Multibit DAC's are supposed to be more musical. What kind of A/D section?

What type of bass management? Adjustable for each speaker? What are the cross-overs and is the slope adjustable? If the slope isn't adjustable, then what is it fixed at?

If the software is flashible, will there be a computer port to get the updates off their website and onto a PC for downloading into the processor's chip since they don't have a dealer network? It'd be easier, cheaper, and safer than having to keep shipping the unit back and forth.

What is the processor chip and its speed and specs?

Is the 6.1 mode for DTS-ES Discrete and Matrix 6.1 adjustible for auto flag detection and manual detection, or does it always have to be on auto for it to pick up on a DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 track?

Will their 6.1 surround mode pick up on the 6.1 flags in upcoming Dolby Digital EX discs?

Does it have separate power supplies for each section: video, analog, digital, etc.? How powerful and is it shielded? Is it a low noise floor design (good EMF, IR, and line noise rejection)?

Will the remote amp turn off/on trigger cause a delayed power on/power off cycle to eliminate power spikes and thumps through the speakers?

How fast is the relay for switching between formats? Is it quiet or does it pop and snap while locking on or losing signal?

How will the 7.1 channel analog input work? Wide bandwidth signal pathway for high rez. DVD-A and SACD discs? Is it only volume level controllable with no further DSP processing or A/D, D/A conversion to keep the best fidelity?

Hope we can find out these answers.

Dan




Stop the MPAA! They're trying to take away your rights!

[Andrew Pratt]

Dan great questions, I let outlaw know about this thread so hopefully we'll hear from them soon. I would very much like to see this club become an outlet for people to talk to the outlaws and get straight answers from real users.

[Andrew Pratt]

Dan i asked Scott at outlaw to look in on this tread and his was his reply

Hello Andrew,

All of the issues raised are very good questions and will be answered in
the not too distant future. However, there are two different design teams
(one for software and one for hardware) at work on the pre/pro. In the
next two weeks, many of these issues will be hashed out. Incidentally,
only this past week did we get new software code from Cirrus Logic for 6.1
and 7.1 post processing.

Thanks and regards,

Scott

[Dan Hitchman]

Thank you Andrew for taking the time to steer the Outlaws to this thread.

Thank you Scott for looking at our inquiries and for the reply. I'm hoping I can come up with some more "brain teasers" before too much longer.

Enjoy your Memorial Day gentlemen!

Dan




Stop the MPAA! They're trying to take away your rights!

[Tibor]

Hey Guys !

I have been reading along and chexking up on Outlaw gang . I was wondering what the diffrence between a A/V reciver like the 1050 and the new pre-amp coming out is . Can the pre-amp only be used with a 1050 or can it be used on its own as a A/V reciver?
Maybe I am missing something .

[Andrew Pratt]

Tibor think of any receiver as three seperate components all rolled into one box. Usually there's a tuner or some sort, an amp and the pre amp section including the processing for DTS etc. Now the 1050 is a true receiver in that it contains all three parts under the hood. The new pre amp we're talking about here contains all the processing, the pre amp and the tuner (though maybe not?) but doesn't have the amps. So whats the benefit of a pre amp? Well usually the amps that are in receviers aren't nearly as good as those found in seperate stand alone amps. Part of the reason is that in a receiver you've got all those parts asking for power from the same source ie the receivers power supply also there's more "noise" in the pre amp area that the amps might pick up so seperating those apart often helps the music sound better. Of course the new pre amp will also ship with a bunch of the latest and greatest processing such as Pro Logic II, and a host of the newer 6.1 formats from DTS and DD.

[psklenar]

Andrew,

The 950 that I saw in New York has the controls for a tuner section. Remember, however, this was a prototype and things can chance between prototype and production.




pat----

email: :<a href="mailtoat@sklenar.info">pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

[Andrew Pratt]

I'd be happy if they didn't include a tuner. I've never used the tuner on my denon and IMO its only adding cost and noise to the pre amp.

[Dan Hitchman]

I'd eliminate the tuner section and use the money saved to put in a better power supply, computer port upgradeability, more powerful processor, better audiophile DAC's, etc.

I listen to the radio in my car, not in my home theater.

Dan




Stop the MPAA! They're trying to take away your rights!

[Dan Hitchman]

I had a few more questions for the Outlaws (besides my comment above):

One is concerning the tone control. Will it be operational during surround modes? Will it be simple bass/treble or a digital equalizer? Will there be a user selectable (since some DVDs now are already adjusted for the X-Curve) re-EQ function that helps tame overly bright movie soundtracks?

On screen programming?

Will the DSP modes keep the full resolution from the DAC's, or will the DSP modes cause a downconversion?

Will the D/A converters allow users to select an upsampling mode for 44.1 and 48 kHz digital signals to 96 kHz or 192 kHz? This is much like the DAC feature on the Integra Research RDC-7 pre-amp/processor.

Did they fix the problem (that's on the 1050 receiver) with their proprietary 6.1 matrix surround decoding where you had to turn it off manually because it got stuck in that mode after you turned it on? Besides DTS-ES Matrix being used for normal 5.0 and 5.1 DTS tracks (as apart of DTS's own software coding), will they also allow their unique Outlaw 6.1 matrix surround decoding to work on DTS 5.0 and 5.1 tracks (ES-matrix encoded or not) as well (an oversight on their 1050 receiver too)?

How will their 7.1 surround modes work? Will they also work for normal 2.0 (stereo and Classic Prologic and ProLogic II, and Neo:6 decoding), 4.0, 4.1, 5.0, and 5.1 tracks (not just with 6.1 matrix and 6.1 ES discrete decoding) so that if you tell the processor you have the back speakers, they will duplicate what is on the left and right stereo surrounds (left surround also in left back, right surround also into right back)? This would help if you have a larger home theater room where you need more soundspread since those particular tracks don't actually have a back surround channel. Etc.

How will the speaker delay function work for the various modes?

Will they include decoding for the newest DTS 24 bit/96 kHz format since the release date for their pre-amp is still several months away? If the processor chosen is getting taxed already, could they consider a more powerful, upgradeable one or even two to off-load some of the DSP modes onto another chip (especially if they dropped the tuner)?

I'm sure I can think of more later.

Thanks!

Dan




Stop the MPAA! They're trying to take away your rights!

[psklenar]

> Did they fix the problem (that's on the 1050
> receiver) with their proprietary 6.1 matrix
> surround decoding where you had to turn it off
> manually because it got stuck in that mode
> after you turned it on? ...

Dan,

Actually that was fixed in the second or third production run of the Model 1050, last summer.




pat----

email: :<a href="mailtoat@sklenar.info">pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

[Andrew Pratt]

Dan I asked the outlaws to answer the questions asked so hopefully we'll get some reply

[Tibor]

Thanks for taking the time and giving me a responds to my question .
I dont have a Home Theather reciver yet should I get the 1050 or wait for the new pre amp to come out ?

[Andrew Pratt]

Tibor well that depends entirely on your budget and how long you can wait The pre amp will sell for $900 and a decent but budget 5 chanenl amp will run you from $350 up to big bucks. Now the pre amp and seperate amp route will sound better and will give you all the latest surround options but the 1050 recevier is a great bargin in its own right.

[Andrew Pratt]

I got this reply back from Scott regrading the quesitons asked in this thread, it looks like we'll find out more info soon. Also take a look at the newsletter we posted its got some added details in it about all the new Outlaw products.

Some of the answers to these questions we just can't give at the moment
(they are still in a state of flux).

We are working on an official update that will be on our "Latest News" page
tonight or early tomorrow morning.

Best Regards,

Scott

[merc]

All I know is that if this unit does not have a tuner, I'll be waiting for the Sherwood Newcastle unit or saving up for a B&K ref 30. This pre/pro will be in my primary system which not only operates as a HT but also supplies music to my house and back yard. When we wake up, the FM tuner goes on and it's only turned off when we watch movies, TV, or go to bed. I've bought and then sold my MD and Parasound tuners and I have no desire to do it again to say nothing of the increased cost of adding it. Finally, I just have no room in my racks for any more components. Although I would also like the pre/pro to have a phono preamp, that is not a deal breaker like not having a tuner.




Take Care,
merc

[Andrew Pratt]

Merc fear not the Outlaw will have a tuner onboard

The Outlaw Model 950 Preamp/Processor

Dolby Digital, Dolby ProLogic II and Dolby 3 Stereo decoding and processing
DTS, DTS-ES Discrete, DTS-ES Matrix and DTS Neo:6 decoding
The latest version of our proprietary Surround 6.1 Mode, which will be able to derive six discrete channels from not only Dolby Digital and DTS sound-tracks, but from stereo and matrix sound tracks, as well
Six A/V inputs with composite and S-video
Two input, high-bandwidth, "HD Compatible" component video switching
On-screen displays and menu driven set-up
A high quality AM/FM tuner with 32 station presets
7.1 channel preamp outputs and dual 12 Volt amplifier triggers for easy connection to amplifiers
Six digital audio inputs (4 optical, 2 coaxial)
Two digital outputs (one of each optical and coaxial)
The latest Crystal Semiconductor CS 43296 DSP engine
Advanced, "audiophile grade" 192kHz/24 bit Crystal Semiconductor
Multi-channel direct input (for DVD-A or SACD)
At least one 2- channel analog bypass input
Separate two-channel "Zone 2" output for use in multi-zone systems or as a dedicated record output
High-grade, low noise components throughout
Software upgradability
Programmable backlit remote and supplied discrete codes for Pronto users
Additional "surprise" features (you didn't think we'd give it ALL away NOW, did you?)

[merc]

Merc fear not the Outlaw will have a tuner onboard

Thanks Andrew!
My plan at this point is to sell my Denon 3801 and my ATI amps and get the whole Outlaw setup. That would include the 950, 770, and interconnects. If the 950 does not come with very good bass management, I'd consider the ICBM too. Now, all I gotta do is get on Outlaw's beta testing group....




Take Care,
merc

[Andrew Pratt]

Now, all I gotta do is get on Outlaw's beta testing group....

yeah you and me both

[psklenar]

Don't count me out guys! I even went and got myself a 750 in order to be in position to help with the beta test!




pat----

email: :<a href="mailtoat@sklenar.info">pat@sklenar.info ---===--- home page: Grumpy's Lair

[Gavin]

don't count me out either....though i have a carver amp, i hope they don't hold that against me...personally, i also would like the pre/pro to have a turner as i listen to music and watch movies about 50/50....perhaps they need beta testers who use their amps and other peoples amps to get a broader spectrum of replies?? i would love to have one this summer as opposed to in the fall...but i can wait....i think.
lets see...instead of getting the pre/pro this summer as planned, i can upgrade the dvd player...then i can get the pre/pro this fall, along with new mains....then new surrounds and a 16:9 HD tv in the winter/spring...dang, i need a third job....g

ps.. thank you Andrew for directing me to this forum....i'm not as well versed in HT as some, but i'm learning...g

[Andrew Pratt]

welcome to club outlaw to all the new people that have wandered in these parts lately

[Brandon B]

They weren't there on the photos of the prototype, but does anyone know if the final version might have XLR balanced outputs?

BB

[Andrew Pratt]

Brandon it might be possible for them to add ballenced outputs in the final design but I'd bet that the model we saw will be very similar to the one that ships

[GregoriusM]

Ok, I'm lazy. It's Saturday afternoon, and the weather is great, and I don't feel like doing a search on this site or the web (which I would normally do)

But could someone explain to me the difference between regular outputs and XLR balanced outputs, and the ramification of having one or the other or both. Is this something I should look for when I get to the pre/pro stage, or do receiver's have them as well?



I'd really be obliged to ya!!! ;-)

[Andrew Pratt]

ask and thou shall receive

http://www.dself.demon.co.uk/balanced.htm

[GregoriusM]

Thank you very much, Mr. Pr@!!!

[Brandon B]

Oh well. Back to coveting the Integra Research RDC-7 from afar then. I'm starting a DIY 7 speaker system with active mains and center, and really want to go the balanced route to avoid noise. Anyone have any suggestions for pre/pros under ~$2500 that do the whole 7.1 thing?

BB

[Andrew Pratt]

Brandon you might want to post that in the audio area to get more answers to that question. I'm not sure what's available thats offers ballenced outputs

[Andrew Pratt]

Does anyone know if the new pre amp will have phono inputs?

[Andrew Pratt]

directly from the outlaws

Hello Andrew,

Thanks for the email.

We are still finalizing some of the features in the Model 950 pre-pro but, at this point, it does not look like we will be including a phono preamp stage. Please note, however, that there are a number of inexpensive external phono preamps that you can buy that will amplify the phono signal to line level. Using on of these, you can connect to one of the AUX inputs and achieve the same effect. If you would like to know more about these external phono preamps, let us know.

Best Regards, Tom

[markkjr]

Bumping up ^




-Mark
Home Theater Specialist
www.digitalvortex.com