Aftermarket upgrade of CD/DVD player

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  • mickster1972
    Member
    • Feb 2005
    • 91

    Aftermarket upgrade of CD/DVD player

    I have an Onkyo "universal" player (DVCP-802) that I really like in terms of build quality and functionality, but I've been wondering if sending it over to a company like "The Upgrade Company" for modifications to the power supply and certain other internal "upgrades" (presumably replacing cheap capacitors and other components in the audio/video path with higher quality ones) will really improve the sound and/or video as much as some of the claims I have read (mainly testimonials on www.upgradecompany.com website). Is this another form of snake oil, or has anyone had positive experiences in this regard that they could share? Price seems reasonable ($400-600) if audible results can be had. I will not consider a separate CD player. I already have maxed out the number of components in my stack.

    I mean, I'd love to go out and buy an Ayre universal player or similar, but who can afford that? (not me).

    Thanks.

    -Sean
    "MMMMMMM..... Floor Pie..... Marge, where's the silver digging thing?"

    -Homer
  • mickster1972
    Member
    • Feb 2005
    • 91

    #2
    in case anyone is interested in doing this...

    I went ahead and bit the bullet and sent my player to The Upgrade Company. If anyone is interested in the results, I can update this thread when I get the unit back (a few weeks) and have had time to listen and evaluate. Won't be all that scientific, since I don't have the original unit for A/B comparison, but since I've lived with the unit for over a year, I can at least speak from memory. If anyone is interested, I can also A/B compare against my current "reference" unit ( reference because it is my only unit in the house), the Toshiba 3960 DVD/CD player. I would limit the comparison to redbook CD only.
    "MMMMMMM..... Floor Pie..... Marge, where's the silver digging thing?"

    -Homer

    Comment

    • Aussie Geoff
      Super Senior Member
      • Oct 2003
      • 1914

      #3
      Mickster,

      I'd be interested and look forward to your review

      Geoff

      Comment

      • mickster1972
        Member
        • Feb 2005
        • 91

        #4
        OK, well, this didn't work out as I intended. My DVD player decided to get finicky and throw out a "Mech. Error" message upon arrival at The Upgrade Company. David Schulte (the owner) thought there might be a disc jammed in there, but upon inspection, there wasn't, so he returned it to me and refunded (most of) my money.

        I only wish he had called me to ask if I wanted him to diagnose the issue further, because it was a simple matter of resetting the unit (by pressing and holding down the power button), which I did easily upon return of the player a week later. Oh, well. So, I was out $50 plus my DVD/SACD/DVD-A/CD player for several weeks, and with no upside.

        I may decide to pursue another vendor of such upgrade services. if anyone out there knows of such a service provider near California, I'm all ears!

        Thanks.
        "MMMMMMM..... Floor Pie..... Marge, where's the silver digging thing?"

        -Homer

        Comment

        • brac
          Member
          • Aug 2005
          • 90

          #5
          Boy what a RIPOFF.... you would think if they knew enough about your unit to be able to upgrade it, they would know how to reset it... Did you tell them how easy it was to reset and ask for your money back?

          The whole thing stinks like yeasterdays diapers....
          Brac

          Comment

          • Karma
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2005
            • 801

            #6
            HI brac,
            I understand your reaction but I see it a little differently. Consider. I ran a high end hi fi repair shop. My biggest problem was having to work on a huge variety of equipment many of which I had never seen before. Do you realize the numbers of types, models, and manufacturers of CD/DVD players there are out there? It's really very difficult.

            It's very believable to me that the mod folks did not know how to reset the player even if they are very experienced. Think about it. They would have made more money if they had reset the unit and completed the job. Their charge was probably their minimum. They probably get disfunctional equipment all the time. This particular problem (and it IS a problem) would have prevented them from testing the mod.

            When you quote a fixed price for a job everything must go according to plan if you are to make money on the job. If you don't make money it's all over. In my case, under the same circumstances, I would have called my customer. Most of my customers were local so it was easy. Still, that phone call costs time and money.

            I had a minimum charge on every repair that came into the shop. Very rarely did it get refunded. I tried to be honest and respectful to my customers. My policies were posted in big letters and I made sure folks read them. I had very few cases where there were misunderstandings. I must say that there were repairs that did not go according to plan. Usually these involved deeper problems than I anticipated and the customer decided to not persue the job. I still charged my minimum to cover the time I had into the effort.

            I'm sorry but I don't see a rip off here.

            Sparky

            Comment

            • mickster1972
              Member
              • Feb 2005
              • 91

              #7
              My reaction to the whole thing has run the gamut of your two replies, as my anger has subsided.
              His business model certainly appears to not account for absorption of costs relating to the occasional unit like mine that has a problem with it. He appears to cater to the folks with units like the Esoteric DV50, where he can charge twice as much, and folks are more willing to pay a high hourly rate if additional diagnosis is required. My player "only" retails for $500. I'm sure he does fabulous (if selective) modification work.


              Over the past 1.5 years that I've had the unit, I got that same error message once before (an actual jammed disc due to my fault in not placing the disc squarely on the tray), and I was able to reset it the same way as described in my initial post. I'm guessing the transit from my house to his shop must have jostled the unit into thinking that there was a disc stuck in there. I guess if he had called me or emailed me like he said he would, to give us a chance to talk through options (like offering me a hour of diagnosis time for a price), instead of going on vacation for 5 days without so much as a word to me, I would feel better about the transaction.

              At this point, I don't feel inclined to do business with him again, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual (I know this because I emailed him to say I was frustrated that he didn't give me the option to have the problem diagnosed before returning it, and he said he "wasn't interested in a flaky DVD player that was dirty and didn't look like it was well cared for at all").

              As to the "dirt", I guess he lives in a hermetically sealed environment. Sorry, but I have better things to do with my time than spraying my components routinely with compressed air! There was some dust on top, but none inside (I took the lid off before I shipped it to make sure everything looked okay). And I leave the unit in a glass-front and child-proof cabinet next to my TV, so I don't know how he concluded that I don't take care of it.

              Oh well. My interest in another company that does similar mods (but has a slightly different attitude towards how they do business) still stands.
              "MMMMMMM..... Floor Pie..... Marge, where's the silver digging thing?"

              -Homer

              Comment

              • Alaric
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 4143

                #8
                I'm not so sure

                Karma , being in the repair business myself , I question your take on the situation. Not being in the electronic repair business , I only question , not assert! Having said that...If I advertise a service for a specific function I should add a disclaimer stating I won't do it if I have no idea what may show up in my shop. There have been an awful lot different motorcycles made over the years but they all do essentially the same thing. Some do it better than others , but the goal is the same. It seems to me (no guarantee of accuracy there!) that a DVD player decodes digital signals from a disc. How many different types of transport are there? The requirements of reading the signal should be similar. Yes , performance improvements should only be performed on a properly operating piece of equipment , and if your shop specializes in upgrades and not repairs , you may not want to engage in mundane things like pushing a button. Perhaps a manual or some literature on specific models you accept in your shop would help? I feel it is a customer service issue-do you go that extra mile or not? If you do , reputation and quality work generally allows you to charge a little more. Charging for work you didn't do and claiming you don't have a clue as to why the item doesn't work doesn't sound like a shop that should be attempting to improve a product that a lot of very good engineers have designed. How long does it take to plug that puppy in , read the error signal , and push it aside? $50.00 for maybe 5 minutes is a pretty high labor rate.How do you improve something if you don't even know how it works?
                If I'm way off-base (it's possible!) then I would welcome the reason(s) why , but that's my $.02

                P.S. I think the shop in question decided a particular mod will "work on everything" and learned how to do that specific mod , with no regard to learning the details of the trade. Volume will make enough money to blow off the occasional need for real expertise-and if that doesn't work you can always charge $50.00 to the poor guy that read your ad and hoped for the best. Over the years I have fixed a lot of stuff that suffered from that philosophy.
                Lee

                Marantz PM7200-RIP
                Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                Schiit Modi 3
                Marantz CD5005
                Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                Comment

                • Karma
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2005
                  • 801

                  #9
                  HI Alaric,
                  In truth we don't how much time was spent. It could have been very little or it could have been significant. I don't know what you repair or if you run the business or not but all successful shops have policies that they must follow most of the time.

                  I usually never argue with another businesses policies as long as I understand what they are. Then I can make an informed decision. If the shop violates the mutually understood policy to my detriment then I have a problem. Basically, I think the shop should charge for their time as long as it was honest time. What most people don't understand is just taking a piece into the shop, not doing any work, is a time expenditure.

                  In my case, that could include an initial phone conversation of indeterminate length, the receiving of the equipment which includes the paperwork of getting the item into the system, the interview with the customer to determine if the repair is realistic (many times it's not and they walk away not paying cent), scheduling the work, scheduling the technician, and the initial testing to do a priliminary problem diagnoses. The repair may go no further if the problem is deeper and potentially more expensive than the initial interview indicated. All of these activities must be covered by the minimum shop charge.

                  My attitude is that I don't take risks. The customer, who owns both the equipment and the problem, must take the risk. No matter how much we try to eliminate risk, it is always there. It belongs to the customer. The most the customer can expect from me is that I give good advice, charge honestly and fully, execute the repair with skill, provide a reliable outcome, and in the event of a problem, honor the warranty in a timely fashon. Beyond that I can do no more.

                  I do intend to make money on every repair. If I don't I'm out business, I don't eat and you don't get to use my skills and knowledge to keep your equipment running. We both loose. As one of my former associates said many times, it's a zero sum game. If you don't charge up front you must make it up somewhere else. There is no choice.

                  Yes, there is good engineering out there but there is also terrible engineering. I could cite many examples of both. I can assure you that every level of engineering excellence is available to your pocket book.

                  There are so many variables in the repair business that to cop an attitude that assumes a rip off is both short sighted and unfair. Sure rip offs do occur. But, there are also honest folks doing repair trying their best to have happy customers and make a living doing it. Happy customers are the only kind that come back.

                  Sparky
                  Last edited by Karma; 04 March 2006, 21:19 Saturday.

                  Comment

                  • GregLett
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2005
                    • 753

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Alaric
                    Karma , being in the repair business myself , I question your take on the situation. Not being in the electronic repair business , I only question , not assert! Having said that...If I advertise a service for a specific function I should add a disclaimer stating I won't do it if I have no idea what may show up in my shop. There have been an awful lot different motorcycles made over the years but they all do essentially the same thing. Some do it better than others , but the goal is the same. It seems to me (no guarantee of accuracy there!) that a DVD player decodes digital signals from a disc. How many different types of transport are there? The requirements of reading the signal should be similar. Yes , performance improvements should only be performed on a properly operating piece of equipment , and if your shop specializes in upgrades and not repairs , you may not want to engage in mundane things like pushing a button. Perhaps a manual or some literature on specific models you accept in your shop would help? I feel it is a customer service issue-do you go that extra mile or not? If you do , reputation and quality work generally allows you to charge a little more. Charging for work you didn't do and claiming you don't have a clue as to why the item doesn't work doesn't sound like a shop that should be attempting to improve a product that a lot of very good engineers have designed. How long does it take to plug that puppy in , read the error signal , and push it aside? $50.00 for maybe 5 minutes is a pretty high labor rate.How do you improve something if you don't even know how it works?
                    If I'm way off-base (it's possible!) then I would welcome the reason(s) why , but that's my $.02

                    P.S. I think the shop in question decided a particular mod will "work on everything" and learned how to do that specific mod , with no regard to learning the details of the trade. Volume will make enough money to blow off the occasional need for real expertise-and if that doesn't work you can always charge $50.00 to the poor guy that read your ad and hoped for the best. Over the years I have fixed a lot of stuff that suffered from that philosophy.


                    You couldn't be more correct! Any shop that is offering to mod a device they they don't know EVERYTHING about, is ripping people off.
                    If they don't know the ins and outs of the product, how can they improve it?
                    You are more likely to damage it, or affect it's operation in a negative way.
                    Greg

                    Comment

                    • Alaric
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Jan 2006
                      • 4143

                      #11
                      Yup

                      Karma , you are right on so many points I won't even begin to address them individually. The consumer does take the risk. The shop absolutely has to make a profit , or why bother? My estimation as to how much time was spent was based on mickster1972's explanation of the problem. If it's in the manual and requires nothing more than pushing a button.....
                      Yeah , there are two sides to every problem and in the electronics arena I have no business being the third side. In the customer service area I have some experience and will say , if you know your craft , you can head off a lot of problems before they occur. For a problem as simple as mickster described , I believe somebody dropped the ball . I'm not sure I agree that the customer always should take the risk . The "cost of doing business" is a pretty standard item in every business model. Customer satisfaction should account for some of that cost. If you're the expert , and advertise as such , the consumer has a right to assume (boy , that's dangerous) some level of competence and ability to adapt and overcome.
                      Finally , yes , the phrase "very good engineers" presumes a lot. And trying to upgrade the performance of a lower grade item is akin to polishing a t&*#@. A shiny t&*#@ isn't much of an improvement. The basics of good design need to be in place before you can fine tune for improvement. Inclusive of all that , if you can't reset a simple error code you probably shouldn't try to re-design the heart and soul of the machine.
                      Totally off-topic-have you read The Soul Of A New Machine by Tracy Kidder? Been about twenty years but it's a great book on hardware design.
                      Lee

                      Marantz PM7200-RIP
                      Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                      Schiit Modi 3
                      Marantz CD5005
                      Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                      Comment

                      • GregLett
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2005
                        • 753

                        #12
                        missing the boat

                        The issue in this case is simple:
                        Company A says that they can modify brand X.
                        1.I send them brand x and they tell me it has a problem

                        2.They send it back and the problem is something that
                        could have been solved by anyone that looked at the
                        manual.

                        3. That says one thing. They know very little about a
                        product they are offering to make better.

                        This is not a business policy, customer service issue, it's a competence
                        issue, plain and simple.

                        How can a company offer to upgrade a product, when they can't trobule
                        a basic problem on the unit?? :scratchhead:
                        Greg

                        Comment

                        • Shawn Parr
                          Member
                          • Feb 2006
                          • 58

                          #13
                          Based on what I have read on their website the Upgrade Company basically swaps out cheap caps and resistors with better quality ones. This really will impact things in the power supply and analog realms much more than in the digital realm.

                          Since in this thread it is a DVD player being discussed the unit has analog, power, and digital sections. The issue they ran across would be a software issue in the digital circuitry. They wouldn't need to know anything about the digital or software circuitry in order to do upgrades to beef up quality for the power supply and analog sections. Mind you, even for those sections they don't need to know anything about the circuit design as it sounds like they are replacing components with newer components with the exact same values and ratings but made by much higher quality manufacturers.

                          Why beef up the power and analog sections on a digital player? The power supply and its quality directly affect the digital clock, thus potentially reducing jitter, which even in the analog outs are never used will increase the quality of the audio output.

                          Upgrading components in the analog circuitry (if used) should be obvious.

                          All that being said, they probably should have enquired with mickster about clearing the error before returning it. However if it is their policy not to deal with what they consider 'flaky' equipment, and the minimum charge was known in advance by mickster then they have the right to take the $50. Although if I was in mickster's shoes I also would not return to them for the work.

                          Comment

                          • Alaric
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 4143

                            #14
                            With all due respect...

                            You are either a technician with a full and comprehensive knowledge (experience don't hurt either) of your customer's product , or you're a dime-a-dozen parts changer. There is a reason "new guys" don't get paid as much as the veterans-and new guys shouldn't be in business for themselves . I'm a firm believer in "paying your dues". Book learnin' and the real world have different terms of description for a reason-they're different.
                            You can get away with swapping parts out of a catalog for a while , but sooner or later one of your potential customers will call you out on lack of competence. According to surveys a happy customer will tell two or three people-an unhappy customer will tell (on average) eleven people . Unfortunately , the internet allows that business model to be profitable for quite some time. That doesn't make it right. :M
                            Lee

                            Marantz PM7200-RIP
                            Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                            Schiit Modi 3
                            Marantz CD5005
                            Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                            Comment

                            • mickster1972
                              Member
                              • Feb 2005
                              • 91

                              #15
                              The $50 was to cover the return shipping ($25), plus, I guess, $25 of his time?? I dunno. Maybe he forgot how much I gave him in the first place and just subtracted incorrectly. I sent a cashiers check, and he wrote me back a personal check for $50 less than that amount. Unfortunately, I had to call him to ask where my refund was, because it wasn't included in the box with the returned DVD player. I don't know if he had intended to refund me or not, but I had to assert my right for a refund, and it followed in the mail several days later.

                              As to whether I was on notice about him not working on DOA units, I was not. Then again, I didn't intentionally send him a broken DVD player. Like I said, it was most likely jostled in transit.

                              I don't argue his competence at the modifications he does... which are supposedly as stated on his website. I was just frustrated at his lack of business ethics and customer service. I have also had a sole proprietorship in the past ( a homebrew supply shop), and I would never leave things that way, even if I ended up spending more time than anticipated on a project/giving a customer advice/researching something. A business owner sometimes needs to "eat" a bit of this soft cost (time) in order to preserve customer relations and goodwill. That's obviously my approach and opinion. To me, if you don't build it into your business model, inevitable unforseen time delays (extra cost) WILL occur and the business will not succeed.

                              I was truly hoping that this post would be a "rave" review of this guy's work, and the end result would give him more business, and make me get the universal player of my dreams. Instead its deteriorated a bit into a discussion about how to conduct business. Sorry about that.
                              "MMMMMMM..... Floor Pie..... Marge, where's the silver digging thing?"

                              -Homer

                              Comment

                              • Karma
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2005
                                • 801

                                #16
                                HI All,
                                You all have expressed a desire that the work is good, that customer relations treat you in a respectful manner and the the price is fair. YOU ARE RIGHT!! Those are fair expectations.

                                But now, we find that it cost $25 for shipping and $25 for unknown reasons. We did not have all the facts. We still may not have all the facts. Yet, you guy's are ready to hang this person(s). Are you jumping to conclusions? If so, why?

                                Don't forget, the unit did not work upon receipt, what ever the reason. I don't think this was a case of a rip off. I do think the customer relatons were terrible assuming we are getting ALL the facts. Frankly, I'm not sure we are. But, no matter. It still doesn't add up to theft. Sorry.

                                Mickster, I suggest that you be more careful in future when you present your case. Now you can see what happens if you are not.

                                Sparky

                                Comment

                                • GregLett
                                  Senior Member
                                  • May 2005
                                  • 753

                                  #17
                                  No need to apologize mickster, not your fault.
                                  Shawn. I still if you are going to work on a product
                                  you need to know everything about it. What if in the
                                  process of swapping things out something happens,
                                  to that other section you don't know anything about?
                                  The customer is SOL. again. A shop doing mods on
                                  units need to at least have a basic understanding of
                                  how the entire unit works, to me that just makes sense.
                                  We wouldn't be having this discussion, if the mod shop in
                                  question did.
                                  Greg

                                  Comment

                                  • mickster1972
                                    Member
                                    • Feb 2005
                                    • 91

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Karma
                                    Mickster, I suggest that you be more careful in future when you present your case. Now you can see what happens if you are not.

                                    Sparky
                                    Hi karma:

                                    I respect your position and agree with many of your comments, but I'm not sure I can agree with the above-quoted comment.

                                    I wasn't trying to present a case at all, just trying to continue a thread I started relating to potential improvement in sound quality of reasonably priced CD/DVD players and let anyone interested know that I was unable to report on the modifications due to unforseen circumstances.

                                    In my second post, I said "now I am out $50 with no upside" which is completely true and accurate for the context of the discussion at that time. I didn't mean to imply that he profited $50. Honestly, I think he didn't intend to take any money other than his actual out-of-pocket for the shipping, but he probably forgot how much I paid him. If he had discussed it with me, I would have agreed that he should net something for his time (probably 15-30 minutes) in attempting to diagnose the problem. Had I known then this was turning into a discussion about business ethics, etc., I would have given more gory details. Bottom line is I don't think he was intending to rip me off. My impression is that he is a very busy guy with better things to do than work on my low-end flaky DVD player.

                                    Now, on to more important topics... but thanks for everyone's thoughts on this!

                                    Regards.
                                    "MMMMMMM..... Floor Pie..... Marge, where's the silver digging thing?"

                                    -Homer

                                    Comment

                                    • Alaric
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • Jan 2006
                                      • 4143

                                      #19
                                      Life isn't fair

                                      I did state there are two sides to every issue . Then I only offered a repairman's point of view. However , I don't bill labor if all I did was say "It's broken" and send it back. The shipping charges I won't opine about-I think everyone will have their own view on that , other than to say it likely didn't cost $25.00 to ship an Onkyo DVD player. Overall , I have to go with GregLett's view. I would not accuse a third party of theft after hearing one side of the discussion , either. I certainly note what seems to be questionable ethics and ability , and if ethics and other people's money are involved-what would you call it?
                                      There are enough questions raised for me to avoid the business in question.

                                      P.S. In the interest of fairness , I sometimes have a minimum charge for wasting my time with nonsense. I just don't define nonsense as "give me your stuff to work on oh no I can't work on it it's broken". 8O
                                      Lee

                                      Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                      Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                      Schiit Modi 3
                                      Marantz CD5005
                                      Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                      Comment

                                      • Shawn Parr
                                        Member
                                        • Feb 2006
                                        • 58

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by GregLett
                                        Shawn. I still if you are going to work on a product
                                        you need to know everything about it. What if in the
                                        process of swapping things out something happens,
                                        to that other section you don't know anything about?
                                        When you work on gear a lot you start to recognize certain kinds of circuits. I'll bet that more often then not if they have good techs and experience, they can open a piece of equipment they have never seen before and after looking at the board for a couple minutes they will know pretty much which circuitry is for the power supply and related, and what is analog circuitry and related.

                                        Comment

                                        • GregLett
                                          Senior Member
                                          • May 2005
                                          • 753

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Shawn Parr
                                          When you work on gear a lot you start to recognize certain kinds of circuits. I'll bet that more often then not if they have good techs and experience, they can open a piece of equipment they have never seen before and after looking at the board for a couple minutes they will know pretty much which circuitry is for the power supply and related, and what is analog circuitry and related.
                                          No argument there. But any good tech would know everything about the piece of gear he is about to do surgery on. An eye doctor, knows how to do CPR.
                                          This is the very reason people should only take their gear to factory authorized shops, and why they have factory authorized shops in the first place.
                                          Greg

                                          Comment

                                          • Chris D
                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                            • Dec 2000
                                            • 16877

                                            #22
                                            If you guys do gain any more experience with modifications of DVD players, I'd be interested. I find the idea interesting, modifying players, and have checked up on it from time to time.
                                            CHRIS

                                            Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                            - Pleasantville

                                            Comment

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