Amp Comparison - Bryston, Classe, Naim and Krell

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  • DavidB
    Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 71

    Amp Comparison - Bryston, Classe, Naim and Krell

    How would people compare the caharacteristics of Bryston,Classe,Naim and Krell amplification. Just wondered as there seem to be so many divergent opinions and reviews on them how people who have heard some or all of these would classify them.
  • ED K
    Member
    • Apr 2005
    • 83

    #2
    I have a pair of 802Ds and I have tried them with McIntosh, Krell and Byston. Settled in on the Bryston 7B SST monoblocks. To me, the Brystons clarity and bass extention was excellent. Been very happy with them.
    Those who know it all know less than those who don't

    Comment

    • JKalman
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 708

      #3
      Originally posted by DavidB
      How would people compare the caharacteristics of Bryston,Classe,Naim and Krell amplification. Just wondered as there seem to be so many divergent opinions and reviews on them how people who have heard some or all of these would classify them.
      I own a Bryston 9B SST which I have been using for awhile now. I think it is a great amp. I would recommend some of those other brands more though for one simple reason. A higher quality amp should double its output from an 8 ohm load to a 4 ohm load. Bryston does not do this. It is a great quality amp for the price, but amps made by Krell and Classe do actually double their output when the ohms are halved. I'm not sure about Naim, but I would think Krell or Classe would be better choices for B&W speakers since that seems to be what most people pair them with now adays, when looking at amps that double their load into 4 ohms.

      If you want to get more power for your money, though, Bryston will give you more for a lower cost with just a minor decrease in production quality. It ia arguable whether you will ever actually use the extra power. The ultimate factor is which sounds the best to your ears. If the Krell and the Bryston you demo sound the same to you, bye the Bryston.

      Comment

      • Karma
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2005
        • 801

        #4
        HI David,
        I can't quibble wih Jeff's logic. I can only underline his advice to audition the contenders carefully with CD's with which you are very familiar. And be sure to audition at equal volumes. This is extremely important; so much so that I suggest that you buy a Radio Shack SPL meter and use it to calibrate your listening sessions. The meter will prove to be useful in many future ways so don't think you are wasting your money. They are cheap compared to the price of an amplifier.

        Besides, you walking into a listening room armed with a meter will get the saleman's attention. It tends to reduce the BS factor. It's always fun to watch their face when you whip it out.

        Sparky

        Comment

        • Jmac
          Member
          • Feb 2005
          • 42

          #5
          I own a complete Naim audio system. The Naim philosophy has always been typically British and of the church that says a little 'playing around' with the signal is fine if it increases your sense of involvment and excitment with the music; hence strict neutrality is not really their rasion de e'tre - unlike B&W speakers. The other piece of nomeclamature bandied about to describe this is PRaT, or pace, rythmn and timing.

          In short, the ability of the system, or amplication, to 'play the tune' is considered more important than other qualities such as tonal timbre, spatial perspectives etc.

          My Naim kit is the so called 'olive' series; it plays the tune and times like a sports car on rails, which makes rock, pop, jazz etc, and even classical very griping, involving and exciting.

          However the very latest models of Naims products, the so called 'black' or 'classic/reference' series feature different output transistors, circuit design etc, and sound similar but yet different; a smoother, cleaner sound, less emphasis on the leading edge of dynamic transients, and hence not quite the same grip and drive, but better re tonality, and representation of tonal timbre/color etc, and a little better re spatial perspectives.

          The Naims will certainly 'work' with B&W speakers, however I cannot but help feel that there is a basic mismatch re sound philosophy; the latest 800 series B&W's with their first order crossovers are significantly better than the earlier series, (and 700/600 series) when it comes to things like timing and cohesion, especially for a large 3 way system, and hence will 'show off' the pace etc of the Naim amps quite well. Earlier B&W designs are less likely to reveal this aspect of the Naim amps performance envelope IMHO.

          Conversely, whilst the B&W's (any of them) excel at soundstaging and imaging, and correct spatial perspectives, and a very natural and neutral tonality, this is not really a strength of Naims amps, and thus the capablities of the B&W's are not likely to be fully revealed in that aspect.

          I've not had the pleasure of hearing Classe, however I've heard Krell with B&W's and would opinon that it is far better suited to B&W speakers than Naim, as a brand with complimentary sound values.

          Hope this helps

          Best Regards

          John.. 8)

          Comment

          • grit
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2005
            • 580

            #6
            Originally posted by DavidB
            How would people compare the caharacteristics of Bryston,Classe,Naim and Krell amplification. Just wondered as there seem to be so many divergent opinions and reviews on them how people who have heard some or all of these would classify them.
            I haven't heard Bryston or Naim, just Krell and Classe. Of those two, I'd say the Krell has more punch... it sounds more authoratative, more energetic. The Classe sounds smooth, silky, and easy to listen to.

            I can't say that one is better than the other, they just have slightly different sonic signatures. And, of course, depending on your other components, one amp may sound better than another (eg, "bright" speakers may do better (to my ears) with the Classe. Also, the TYPE of music you listen to may be a factor (I'd take Krell for pop/rock over Classe, and I'd take Classe for jazz/classical over Krell).

            It's not much, and as always, you need to listen for yourself, but I hope this helps at least somewhat.

            Comment

            • JKalman
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2005
              • 708

              #7
              Wow no sleep for 48 hours and I made a lot of crazy typos... Sheesh, "bye" instead of "buy"!

              It definitely looks like there is a lot of good advice in the thread.

              Jmac, I was wondering if it is also possible that the weaknesses and strengths of the two components might balance each other out and reach a medium in terms of the different sound philosophies or if that isn't usually the case in your experience?

              I've only demo-ed 2 Naim CD players before, but I am intrigued to go listen to some of their gear after your stellar review of their philosophy. I will have to see if that dealer who had the CD players carries any of their amplifiers or preamps.

              Comment

              • Jmac
                Member
                • Feb 2005
                • 42

                #8
                Jeff said:
                Jmac, I was wondering if it is also possible that the weaknesses and strengths of the two components might balance each other out and reach a medium in terms of the different sound philosophies or if that isn't usually the case in your experience?
                Well, it can work, as there are lots of Naim devotees using speakers other than Naims with their Naim electronics, however IMHO, a Naim system is somewhat idiosyncratic in that it stands a little out of the mainstream of accepted audiophile 'wisdom'.

                These days since the sad passing of the companies founder, Julian Vereker, a few years back, and with the release of the new 'reference' series, the sound has become more mainstream than before, however the philosophy really only finds full expression IMHO, in the context of a full Naim system.

                Naim is very much about involvement with the music, that infectious foot-tapping rythmic drive; however if you value more, or at least equal amounts of say 3D like holographic imaging and soundstaging for example, this is not really Naims forte IMHO.

                When I bought my Naim electronics, I had some lovely B&W DM2A loudspeakers. These were early generation B&W products, and 2nd from the top of the line at the time. Basically they did not work well re compatibility with the Naim amps, re contrasting sound/presentation philosophies, and a long search ensued to find speakers to match, which was really only satisfactoriy answered for me personally, with Naims own, the SBL which I eventually bought after auditioning many different brands.

                I've had eleven happy years with the Naim setup; it truly is one of those systems where the total exceeds the sum of the parts, and again that's Naims approach as well, as they design all their own interconnects etc, and a Naim system is matched from beginning to end; in a sense all the hard work is done for you.

                However, times change and one develops greater or more expansive HiFi knowledge perhaps, and then there is the advent of HT. Certainly for me, with a burgeoning interest in HT that near enough matches my love of music reproduction in the home, and with the constraints of apartment living, one system to do both music and HT is the way forward for me personally.

                I recently purchased some Sony ES kit as an add-on for HT use to my Naim system, as I was not happy with the limited solutions offered by Naim on a performance/cost basis; an ES series DVD/SACD/CD machine, and the top of the line 7 channel integrated digital amp, the TA-DA9000ES (STR-DA9000ES US model), and have to my chagrin found that in many ways it outperforms the Naim for my taste in many areas in 2 channel music, let alone HT. I say chagrin, only because of the large difference in cost.

                The Naim has a sound all of it's own, and as I say, to my ears it is hard to beat on rock, pop, etc for sheer excitement and involvement with the music. However, when we turn to classical, the Sony kit, even with my Naim speakers, which are really a little too lean in tonal balance to suit, the results are well ahead when it comes to believability 'that you are there' at a performance venue, with real vocalists/musicians playing re correct spatial perspectives, tonal timbre and colour, as found in real life, than with the Naim electronics IMHO.

                Now, as this is the B&W speaker forum, to bring the subject back full circle, I have been doing quite a lot of research and auditioning of late re speakers, and once funds have been settled (which is taking
                quite some time! - I will be going with a set of B&W speakers to match the Sony kit, as I feel it is a very good 'marriage' indeed. The Sony kit is very, very fast, re it's transient response, and whilst not quite as hard hitting re the leading edge of sounds, delivers as much, if not more 'excitement' than the Naims on classical, losing out to the Naim only in the more extreme examples of hard driving rock and pop IMHO.

                With Classical music the tonal colour, timbral detail, spatial perspectives, fine layering of subtle detail/transparency, coupled with the speed of transient response, makes for a captivating listen. I've been describing the sound of the Sony/Naim speakers combo, but at it's heart, it's the sound of B&W speakers to my ears! - along with 3D imaging which the Sony kit also does very well.

                I'ts strange, but I feel as if I'm coming around in a circle, as the one product I miss having dalied with quite a few others, and having heard myriad combinations of gear, is B&W; there is just something so 'right' with the sound. And that sound (philosophy and real) matches beautifully with the Sony digital kit IMHO.

                So to sum up (sorry about the length of this post!) is that yes, whilst you can do it, I wouldn't personally be putting B&W speakers with Naim electronics! I hope my somewhat longwinded reply (didn't intend it to become that!) explains my thoughts a little better..

                Best Regards

                John...

                Comment

                • azsyno
                  Member
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 50

                  #9
                  Jmac - you can write and convey your musical opinions and knowledge in way that few can. I read all the threads here and there's a lot of great knowledge lurking on this board.

                  Thanks for posting your thoughts.

                  One thing I wonder about it your choice of Sony. Not many on this board (or any other audiophile-type site, would agree with you. What specific products are you referring to?

                  Comment

                  • Jmac
                    Member
                    • Feb 2005
                    • 42

                    #10
                    azsyno said:
                    Jmac - you can write and convey your musical opinions and knowledge in way that few can. I read all the threads here and there's a lot of great knowledge lurking on this board.

                    Thanks for posting your thoughts.

                    One thing I wonder about it your choice of Sony. Not many on this board (or any other audiophile-type site, would agree with you. What specific products are you referring to?
                    Thanks for your kind words. Heheh, I have a habit of writing at length, but then I don't usually write unless I feel I have something that I can genuinely offer, and that in turn is sometimes hard to put into just a few words; I have been criticised (not here) in the past for writing overly long posts, so your kind words of praise are appreciated - thanks again!

                    Re Sony and B&W. I use an Sony ES series disk spinner, it is the DVP-S9000ES, SACD/DVD/CD machine, and also the top ES series Digital integrated amp; it is the Euro version, TA-DA9000ES, which is identical to the US version (STR-DA9000ES) apart from the omission of tuner, 12 volt triggers etc, so it is an integrated 7 channel amp, not a receiver, albeit it has DD/DTS decoding etc onboard, as well as Sony's proprietary Digital Cinema Sound, DSP HT soundfield processing.

                    As to the 'pedigree' of these products; despite Sony as a brand being very low on the radar of the 'typical' audiophile, I note that the DVP-S9000ES SACD/DVD/CD player is still used as a reference by audiophile magazines such as 'Stereophile' and 'Ultimate AV' in their reviews, and the STR-DA9000ES recently made Ultimate AV mags 'Platinum Standard category' for exceptional high-end audio products without reference to cost, so I rather suspect that any derogatory views by 'audiophiles' of Sony as a high-end product has more to do with branding and market perceptions than any basis in reality, as regards high quality audio engineering and sound quality overall.

                    I would be more than happy to write at greater length about aspects such as branding, amplifier design, the audiophile approach to sound generally, and my thoughts about Sony in respect to that, but that is probably more appropriate for another forum here on HT guide, and as a newbie I don't want to break the rules if possible!

                    The connection with B&W is apt, as to the best of my knowledge, Sony developed/voiced the STR-DA9000ES/TA-DA9000ES twins using B&W speakers, and indeed upon release of the TA-DA9000ES set up a demo using five 800 Nautilis models in a multi-channel surround sound SACD music demo. I know of several users of B&W 801's using the STR-DA9000ES amp and with reported much success.

                    Certainly I find to my ears the B&W 'house' sound, and the sound of the new Sony S-Master Pro digital amps very complimentary in terms of sound qualities. Certainly the sound is quite different to say Rotel, in that Rotel (analogue) is a little darker, and slightly warmer in tonality perhaps, but with a slower, less nimble/agile ability re transient response, whereas the Sony is lighter in tone, but not 'bright', with a lovely sense of open and neutral tonal colour, coupled with this sense of very natural transient reponse; music be it of very legato playing, full of melancholy and pathos, or the fastest presto, full of fire, speed and excitement, is tellingly and accurately portrayed when compared to real and known music.

                    I would be very interested to hear the latest Rotel 1077 digital amplifier with the B&O ICE power modules; from brief descriptions I have read of the sound, I would say it's sound is closer to the Sony digital sound, than say analogue Rotel to the digital Sony. Either way, when it comes to B&W speakers, at whatever level, I'd opinion the Rotel 1077 digital amp, and the Sony S-Master Pro digital amps, such as I own, would make a very fine compliment to B&W speakers, which would comfortably include the 800 series and at all levels.

                    I am also quite sure that other amps such as Macintosh, Krell, and Classe would be superb amps with B&W speakers; personally I've only had the pleasure of hearing the Krell of those three.

                    Memory is an unreliable thing, but in lieu of being able to put a Krell alongside the Sony digital in a strict in the home A/B comparo, I'd be more than happy with the Sony/B&W match, especially given the large difference in price/v's ultimate performance with Krell amps. Sure the Krell will/does have a bigger, weightier presentation; the control in the bass of Krell amps is amazing; however for sheer transparency, and speed of transient response, and hence musical expression/involvment, the Sony does very, very well, indeed.

                    Of course, this is only my opinion, but I certainly do see B&W speakers & Sonys new Digital amps being a very good match; one may undoubtedly do better, as is always the case with HiFi, but unless you have a small fortune to spend upon amplification, amps such as the top Rotels, and the new Digital Sonys' make superb music making with B&W speakers in my humble opinion.

                    Hope this helps; as always these things are subjective, however I suppose I'm an oddball in that I am a bit of an audiophile in that I like to get the best out of my kit, however unlike a lot of audiophiles for whom the kit is the hobby, and the music somewhat incidental, I come from a background of classical music, both study and performance, over three disciplines (trumpet, piano, and voice) and like B&W speakers, the Sony amp is superb on classical music particularly, when the reference, is not other HiFi kit, but natural, acoustic sounds and instruments.

                    Indeed it is very much worth noting that in the formative years of B&W, John Bowers was a known classical music lover, and this shows years later in the voicing and presentation of B&W speakers, even today.

                    More importantly, given that so much is subjective, John Bowers was one of the very few people (Peter Walker of Quad was another) who had the courage to set up live music v's recorded music using his speakers. Now if you Really want to assess kit by perceived sound quality as against measurement, that is surely the best way, and yet the toughest way to do it. Hard to do, but also very hard to beat IMHO! Music always tells the true story when assesing kit, and the Sony/B&W match is very, very good when music is the measure.

                    Best Regards

                    John...

                    Comment

                    • RNKC
                      Senior Member
                      • Jun 2005
                      • 197

                      #11
                      My $0.02 on this topic:

                      I inherited a Bryston amp a long time ago (100w per channel I think it was). Very nice amp. It was well built and sounded fantastic. I could only imagine that the higher end Brystons, particularly their monoblocks would sound great. I reluctantly sold that Bryston for a Proceed Amp 5 which admittedly sounded better than the Bryston - more punch on the bass and a better, smoother sound overall.

                      But ... I upgraded my Kef Reference 104.5 to B&W N802 and then found the Proceed a bit lacking. It wasn't bad, but I knew there was better stuff out there. So I listened to Classe, Naim, Krell and Mark Levinson. I eventually picked up a Levinson 432 amp on Audiogon and have been very happy since. To my ears (I listen exclusively to classical) I found that Levinson & Krell were the best. It's hard to classify the amps because they are both built on the premise that added colouration is A Bad Thing. The philosophy of Levinson & Krell is to pass as pure a signal as possible from source to speaker. Yet both amps sound so good that one has to come to the conclusion that they do make a difference to the sound, and therefore must be adding their own characteristics to the signal.

                      Paradoxical ... but this hobby doesn't always make sense.

                      I found that Naim on the B&W just didn't sound quite right. On other speakers Naim sounded great. But on B&W, they just didn't sound like B&W anymore. I was puzzled and disappointed. Classe was very nice, and I've seen pics from Abbey Road and the B&W test lab where they have Classe hooked up to their 801. Obviously Classe is doing something right. But again, to my ears there was something lacking. It was a clean sound from the Classe, but it was ... well ... thin. The music lacked character. There was a reserved quality to the sound, almost as though it was being held back. I kept wanting more, thinking there was more, sensing there was more, but not getting it. It was frustrating and I didn't like it.

                      So I went to the "pure" sound of Krell & Levinson. The music jumped out but not in a way that attacked. Suddenly, the entire orchestra was right there in front of me. Each instrument was where it was supposed to be - the brass was seated behind the woodwinds. The timpani was off in the back corner with the double bass holding the other end of the orchestra. I was listening and I was seeing. It was heavenly.

                      But I couldn't possibly affort $16K (Canadian) for an amp. So I went to Audiogon and found my Levinson for $5K. Why Levinson instead of Krell? The Levinson was available and I couldn't find a comparable Krell at the time. I could have waited I suppose, but at the time I didn't want to.

                      Same choice today? I might go with Krell. Mark Levinson sounds fantastic! I love my 432 amp. You'll have to pry it from my cold, dead hands if you know what I mean. (Assuming you can lift the beast on your own that is.) But as a company, Madrigal (makers of Mark Levinson) is adrift. They've lost the edge and haven't pushed the envelope. For that matter, they haven't even released any new products lately. I see they finally plan to release a DVD player (model No.51), but Krell as a company seems to be in better shape. For that reason alone, I'd probably pick a Krell today. But I have absolutely no regrets over my choice of Levinson and only wish that I had enough $$$ to pick up the No.33H monoblocks ($10K US on Audiogon).

                      Comment

                      • Aussie Geoff
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Oct 2003
                        • 1914

                        #12
                        Hi,

                        I'm moving this to the Audio Hideout where you are likely to get some extra comentary over us Club B&W folk.

                        Geoff
                        Last edited by Aussie Geoff; 16 February 2006, 07:07 Thursday.

                        Comment

                        • alebonau
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Oct 2005
                          • 992

                          #13
                          really depends I think what speakers your partnering with and what your looking for sound wise.

                          Ive heard classe pre and mono blocs with martin logans and thought they sucked ! too soft and delicate. Just lacking in bite slam and dynamics etc. With B&ws they might be a better match countering their 'brighter" more "forward" sound

                          Naim I've heard with snell speakers and their grip, dynamics and realism certainly got my attention. A very real sounding combination. Certainly put hte band in the room.

                          Bryston I've only heard the power pacs with pmc speakersa and though they sounded a bit rough lacking in finesse compared to other amp brands in the same price range.

                          Krell, demoed the kav 400i, well not sure I can handle its clinical take no prisoners kind of sound.

                          Really all of this is personal preference stuff. Demo the amps in question with your speakers and buy the combination you like best.
                          "Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."

                          Comment

                          • DavidB
                            Member
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 71

                            #14
                            Well I tried amplifiers from Naim,Bryston,Classe,Meridian (I'm going to be running the 2 channel through a Meridian G68 AV processor) and Dynavector all through B&W 802D's. The Meridian eliminated itself pretty early which was no surprise. I like the sound of the Bryston and Classe, but maybe felt they were a little laid back though they had great rhythm. My final choice came down to the Naim and Dynavector and the Dynavector won the day, it's very musical and has incredible grip and really makes the speakers sing...it's ability to produce clean taught and deep bass was phenominal. The Dynavector is quite an old design and is soon to be replaced but to my mind is definitely worth auditioning if ever you get the chance.

                            Comment

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