How long before sound degradation occurrs in amplifiers

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  • bleeding ears
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 435

    How long before sound degradation occurrs in amplifiers

    Hi, I am considering buying an older soild state amplifier which may be 10 years old or a bit more.

    Is this too old? would there be any sound degredation from the years of use it may have had?

    When or at what age would sound degradation be noticeable from an amplifier?

    All the above is assuming that the amp has been looked after an is in proper working order without any known faults.

    Any ideas?

    Pete
  • Aussie Geoff
    Super Senior Member
    • Oct 2003
    • 1914

    #2
    Bleeding Ears,

    It very much depends on the quality of the original parts... However items that tend to drift out of tolerance include:
    > Capacitors, especially the larger ones
    > Sime types of resistors
    > Driver Transistors

    So the odds are at minimum it won't sound quite as good as new (could be 5% could be 50%) depends on quality of components, how hot the amp has got and luck...

    You will probably get another 5-10 years out of it - unless you have a major failure...

    Now there are a few exceptionally built amps - like the Bryston with their 20 year warranty where they use high quality high temparature parts...

    Geoff

    Comment

    • bleeding ears
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2004
      • 435

      #3
      Geoff, thanks for the reply, I think I may reconsider buying that older amp and go for something much newer.

      Its too hard to know just how much deterioration in sound an amp may have when it is getting old and I have spent too much money thus far on my system to make its weak point an old amp which may need replacing, no matter how cheap it may be.

      Looks like I have to dig deep into my pockets yet again.

      This hobby is expensive!

      Thanks Pete

      Comment

      • whoaru99
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2004
        • 638

        #4
        There is not really a way to know for sure. I would not be afraid of a name brand amp that is 10 years old. Used gear is a great way to save money, or get some real quality stuff that you may not otherwise afford at new prices.

        Heck, all the amps I own (except for a new Panasonic XR-55 receiver) are roughly 20 years old and still going strong.

        I just checked the DC offset at the speaker terminals and bias on the four Yamahas and everything seems to be fine. The background of these amps is as quiet and black as anything I've heard regardless of age and they still rock the house. No signs of capacitors leaking or bulging, etc.
        There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:

        ----JAFFE'S PRECEPT

        Comment

        • Briz vegas
          Super Senior Member
          • Mar 2005
          • 1199

          #5
          I added a Nakamichi 620 power amp to my home theatre system a few weeks back for 2 shannel listening and the improvement over the amps in my 2 year old Marantz 7300 OSE is significant. We are talking about a 1978 power amp here. Rated at 100watts, it has more detail, sweeter highs, and has more control and apparent power than the 110 watt receiver.

          Maybe it is not fair judging a receiver against a power amp. I auditioned a new 140 watt Quad 909 power amp last weekend. It had better qualities in some areas, but overall I found the Nakamichi more engaging for most of my music collection. I think there are real bargains to be had out there if you are careful - the Nakamichi was given to me for nothing by a friend. I don't think he realised how good his dads old hifi was.
          Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
          Siamese :evil: :twisted:

          Comment

          • bleeding ears
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2004
            • 435

            #6
            Briz, when you manage to get an amp for nothing then you cannot go wrong no matter how it sounds.

            Luckily you have one that sounds good as well. LOL

            Unfortunately I am unable to get amps (or anything else) for nothing and have to folk out for my equipment, but I havent given up trying just yet. LOL

            I too still think that there are some real bargains to be had. Most of my equipment has been bought at fantastic prices and some of it is used.

            My only concern is that should I buy what seems like a bargain, that it is in fact a bargain and not an expensive mistake, and I have made a few in the past.


            I would recommend to anyone to buy used gear but just make sure it works well before handing over the cash or have a warranty/return option.

            I am still keeping my eye out for bargains, maybe just a bit younger than 10-15 years old so that I have no doubts about its performance level.

            I hate wondering what it would have sounded like if I had of spent a bit more and got the better or newer model, but thats only avoidable until something better or newer again comes out. LOL

            Pete

            Pete

            Comment

            • purplepeople
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2004
              • 242

              #7
              There are audible reasons why the vintage units from Harman, Luxman, Marantz, Pioneer and Sansui draw such "high" bids on eBay. But, don't take my word for it... I am the biased owner of a Marantz 1530.

              ensen.
              Those who claim to be making history are often the same ones repeating it...

              Comment

              • Aussie Geoff
                Super Senior Member
                • Oct 2003
                • 1914

                #8
                Hi,

                Interestingly, a common effect of age related degredation in capacitors etc in traditional class A or B amplifiers is a increasing HF roll off... Initially this can translate to a "sweet valve like sound" in some peopless ears - since manny earlier valve designs had this a a characteristic...

                Geoff

                Comment

                • bleeding ears
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 435

                  #9
                  Geoff, and others, do you think this HF rolled off sound would occurr with older cd players as well as in amps?

                  I have noticed my Rotel 965BX cd player (approx 1992 model I think)sometimes seems to be missing just a little in the highs and clarity compared to my $1000 Onkyo dvs555 (2002 model) dvd player, using the same analogue cables and set up.

                  This is nothing major and with harsher sounding cds the Rotel may actually smooth things out a little and tone it down better than the onkyo, but I do usually miss the more detailed sound of the Onkyo.

                  Mind you the Onkyo is no slouch! It uses Burr Brown dacs on all channels and has been a great machine.

                  So back to my original question, " generally how long before sound degradation occurrs in amplifiers "(and other components)

                  Or to put it another way how old is too old for Hi Fi components to keep their original sound quality?

                  Are older Hi Fi components always the bargain they appear to be?

                  I think this would make a very interesting article in a Hi Fi magazine, especially if they did some bench testing and made accurate comparisons with figures to show the results.

                  I guess nothing lasts forever! LOL

                  Pete

                  Comment

                  • bleeding ears
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2004
                    • 435

                    #10
                    Oh! one more comment.

                    With age, apparently we all loose a bit in the high frequency hearing ability anyway.

                    This might explain why an older folk (me) might like more detail in the sound.
                    LOL :lol:

                    Pete

                    Comment

                    • Briz vegas
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 1199

                      #11
                      Degraded capacitors!!! High frequency roll off !!!! I want my money back......oh, thats right, my 78 Nak was a freebie wasn't it. :roll:

                      I just did a quick test with the stereophile test disc using my 40 year old ears to check for audilble differences. The Marantz did slightly better at the higher frequencies, however the difference was marginal and my ears ran out of sensitivity at the same frequency for both the 2 year old and the 28 year old amplification. The Marantz may be slightly louder at the higher frequencies, but the Nak reveals more of the detail and timbre of the sound. I now like my B&W 705s all of the time, rather than just some of the time. If I had paid the going rate for this model on the second hand market I would still be happy, even if it only lasts for a few years. Buys me some time to save for something even better.
                      Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                      Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                      Comment

                      • bleeding ears
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2004
                        • 435

                        #12
                        Briz, good on you I love it when someone (especially me) gets a bargain. LOL :lol:

                        Coincidently, I myself almost bought a Marantz 7300 0se (5 x 110 watt) a year or two ago.

                        It did sound a bit better in the high frequency (more detail) compared to the Rotel 1055 receiver (5 x 75 watt) but when the volume got to loud levels the Marantz lost it and went all harsh sounding. The Rotel stayed composed and sounded pretty good considering the volume level.

                        So, I imagine that you going to a seperate amp for your receiver would yield a substantial improvement particularly at higher volumes.

                        I actually ended up buying a Marantz Sr 8200 (RRP $3990) but got it very cheap.

                        I know why it was cheap, it sounded terrible until I added a seperate multichannel amp. But there was still room for improvement.

                        I sold the Sr8200 and now own a RSP 1068 prepro and a multichannel amp and am nearly where I want to be soundwise.

                        I see you have great speakers (B&W) so I thought I might share my experiences with you and lead you down that expensive but irresistable path of upgrades.

                        Keep looking for bargains.

                        Pete :B

                        Comment

                        • Briz vegas
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 1199

                          #13
                          Pete
                          Sounds like a familiar upgrade path. First a power amp added to the receiver then moving to a Pre/Pro. I intend to hold off on the next upgrade for a while and buy some more CDs instead of more components. I think I may have reached the point where any true upgrade will be very expensive. Fortunately I do not have any friends with better gear at this point, which is what started my last round of upgrades.
                          Mac 8gb SSD Audirvana ->Weiss INT202 firewire interface ->Naim DAC & XPS2 DR->Conrad Johnson CT5 & LP70S-> Vivid B1s. Nordost Valhalla cables & resonance management. (Still waiting for Paul Hynes PS:M)
                          Siamese :evil: :twisted:

                          Comment

                          • wkhanna
                            Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 5673

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Briz vegas
                            Fortunately I do not have any friends with better gear at this point, which is what started my last round of upgrades.
                            Ah....Yes......

                            AKA Upgraditis Enviotius....Highly contagious.....both visually and sonically transmitted.

                            Currently identified and being tracked by the C.D.C as a potentially likely candidate for serious outbreak due to recent increases of a mutated strain being documented as ‘Class-D-itis'.

                            For me it was My friend’s Bryston 4B around 12 years ago.
                            _


                            Bill

                            Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                            ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                            FinleyAudio

                            Comment

                            • Karma
                              Senior Member
                              • Nov 2005
                              • 801

                              #15
                              HI bleeding,
                              I would be very careful about buying used amplifers unless saving every last penny is your only priority. Solid state audio sound has made huge strides in the last few years. This is especially true of the less expensive amplifiers and receivers. Used is less important for a system that will be used for casual listening.

                              For serious listening with good speakers, you can buy used but buy recent models. Best to buy recent used high end models.

                              Sparky

                              Comment

                              • Victor
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2002
                                • 338

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Karma
                                HI bleeding,
                                I would be very careful about buying used amplifers unless saving every last penny is your only priority. Solid state audio sound has made huge strides in the last few years. This is especially true of the less expensive amplifiers and receivers. Used is less important for a system that will be used for casual listening.

                                For serious listening with good speakers, you can buy used but buy recent models. Best to buy recent used high end models.

                                Sparky
                                I disagree. Transistor-based linear power amplifiers have remained virtually unchanged for the past 30 years give or take a few. There are very few exceptions to this, - Amplzilla being one, Carver’s Lightstar is the other, Alexander’s current feedback is also in this group as well as the superb Robert Cardwell feed-forward amplifier. The latter two never got to be a commercial success. There might be a few more, but I am going from memory here.

                                The circuit topology that is being used today is fundamentally the same as it was back in 1970’s when a fully complimentary symmetric power amplifier design was introduced into production for the first time. That is not to say that this approach was unknown before, - it is just it was impossible to build those power amps due to the fact that the PNP transistors were not readily available.

                                Since then most power amplifier companies built essentially the same amplifier with a few circuit twists of their own. Krell and Levinson went nuts with Class ‘A’ version of the ‘70’stopology featuring a super-precise output current monitoring, as if it were a key to superior sound quality. Bryston invented a clever output stage that gives Bryston gear those superb THD numbers. There are many more examples in the industry.

                                The truth is, - that it is very difficult to come with something novel and it is even more difficult to successfully build it. So, why mess with a good thing, when a good-old fully complementary design is well understood and it delivers.

                                Regards,
                                Victor

                                Comment

                                • bleeding ears
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2004
                                  • 435

                                  #17
                                  Briz and wkhanna very funny, yes the condition (upgraditis) can be contracted unknowingly. In fact I think I may have it? :lol:

                                  I'm pretty sure I first contracted the condition (or virus) at a mates place.

                                  I didnt know it at the time but I am pretty sure my mate intentionally passed the virus onto me through contaminated drinks. Damn Him!


                                  Whilst my mate and I were chatting, he had his hifi system playing some great sounding music to distract me, and this is when I think he sneekily gave me alcoholic beverages to consume with the upgradeitis bugs in the drink. (Some friend!)

                                  That night at home I could not sleep and had strange voices and songs going on in my head all night. Especially The Eagles dvd Hell freezes over.
                                  Mind you alcohol was not to blame here as I had only drank about 13 beers!

                                  That was the very first sign of anything being wrong.

                                  Another symptom that followed was lethargy, I was very tired and unable to sleep, caused by the urge to stay up late at night reading equipment reviews on the net in search of a cure.

                                  Other signs of having the condition include, being unable to concentrate at work, mind wandering off contemplating my next equipment purchase, also an uncontrollable urge to talk about home theatre or hi fi when others couldnt give at toss about it. LOL

                                  Another sign is when you wake from some trance like state and realise you have found your way to various Hifi shops very far from home in search of a fix, and then you constantly ring mates to talk about how good it was.

                                  My advice for anyone with the condition would be to avoid talking to mates about it as it can inflame the condition making it uncontrollable.

                                  Uncontolled the virus will become a serious addiction.

                                  The condition is best treated with a good dose of your most desired sound equipment, being purchased at a good price, and then resting for extended periods in a comfortable chair listening for the bugs in the system.

                                  I have found good recordings late at night do wonders for the condition.

                                  Alcoholic beverages should be avoided as they can further inflame the condition causing the victim to go deaf and start fights with the neighbours due to the excessive volume levels.

                                  Beware of taking small doses of sound (fixes) at local Hi Fi shops as it only leads to a worsening of the condition and does nothing to ease what has by now become an addiction. You could also get arrested for loitering inside Hi Fi shops.

                                  In my experience the virus can only be controlled by an angry wife or girlfriend, but she will not be able to totally eliminate the virus or addiction.

                                  An evening of froliking with the wife/girlfriend in the bedroom may temporarily distract the sufferer from his affliction but it will soon return late that night when the she falls asleep. (Dont get caught, The shock of an irrate wife could kill some sufferers) LOL

                                  If the condition is not controlled by the victim, it can end in disaster.

                                  I know of victims (me) that will go for long periods without any necessities to fund their next fix.(An amplifier)

                                  I know of others that are not feeding their kids and are living in a bus shelter.
                                  Unfortunately many have had to downgrade to an MP3 Player. LOL :rofl:

                                  Somebody stop me!
                                  Last edited by bleeding ears; 18 February 2006, 07:32 Saturday.

                                  Comment

                                  • bleeding ears
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2004
                                    • 435

                                    #18
                                    Wow glad I got that last post off my chest. LOL

                                    Now, Karma and Victor, it is good to see varying opinions from you.

                                    It appears that it is only now with the class d amps appearing on a large scale that amps have really changed that much.

                                    But then again, as others have said these Rotels and Nuforces may not truely be class d amps.

                                    To me it doesnt matter what its called or how it works as long as it does a good job and is affordable.

                                    Hence the search for a good used amp.

                                    Obviously the best option is to hear the amp before buying it.

                                    This not only ensures it is working correctly but also will allow you to gain an impression of what it sounds like.

                                    After reading the replies I now have some idea what to look for ie rolled off highs.

                                    This of course can be a good thing depending on what you are trying to achieve in your system.

                                    I dont think many audio nuts would not want detail in the high frequency and clarity, provided that these attributes come without harshness.

                                    So now I am thinking , Is this rolled off High frequency sound that many describe with Rotel gear what is really desireable in a good system?

                                    It would appear that nearly all audiophiles eventually move towards this brighter clearer more controlled bass sort of sound and it is growing on me more and more in fact I dont like bass to be very prominent at all.

                                    Is this what I should be looking for in an amp?

                                    Thanks Pete

                                    Comment

                                    • Karma
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2005
                                      • 801

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Victor
                                      I disagree. Transistor-based linear power amplifiers have remained virtually unchanged for the past 30 years give or take a few. There are very few exceptions to this, - Amplzilla being one, Carver’s Lightstar is the other, Alexander’s current feedback is also in this group as well as the superb Robert Cardwell feed-forward amplifier. The latter two never got to be a commercial success. There might be a few more, but I am going from memory here.

                                      The circuit topology that is being used today is fundamentally the same as it was back in 1970’s when a fully complimentary symmetric power amplifier design was introduced into production for the first time. That is not to say that this approach was unknown before, - it is just it was impossible to build those power amps due to the fact that the PNP transistors were not readily available.

                                      Since then most power amplifier companies built essentially the same amplifier with a few circuit twists of their own. Krell and Levinson went nuts with Class ‘A’ version of the ‘70’stopology featuring a super-precise output current monitoring, as if it were a key to superior sound quality. Bryston invented a clever output stage that gives Bryston gear those superb THD numbers. There are many more examples in the industry.

                                      The truth is, - that it is very difficult to come with something novel and it is even more difficult to successfully build it. So, why mess with a good thing, when a good-old fully complementary design is well understood and it delivers.

                                      Regards,
                                      Victor
                                      HI Victor,
                                      I agree that amplifier topology has been fully explored. But that was not my argument. My statement concerned the sound quality which is what hi fi is all about. It's NOT about topology which is just a detail which may or may not yield advantages. Over the years the importance and understanding of circuit details and components has advanced significantly within any given topology.

                                      For example, 30 years ago it was common to use electrolytic capacitors for intercircuit coupling. Now, one almost never finds this done. Thirty years ago FET's were still laboratory curiosities rarely found in consumer equipment. In fact, modern amplifiers are really huge op amps fully DC coupled except for an input capacitor. Of course, class A amps are different and still very exotic. There are many such details that are now common, even in inexpensive (relatively) equipment.

                                      But, the bottom line is that the sound of later equipment is generally much better. Just take a listen to the average receiver and the point is made. Are you arguing against this point?

                                      Sparky
                                      Last edited by Karma; 18 February 2006, 10:28 Saturday.

                                      Comment

                                      • Victor
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Apr 2002
                                        • 338

                                        #20
                                        Karma,

                                        I am well aware regarding the current craze about the electrolytic caps. Yes, it has been shown that the plastic caps, such as the polypropylenes have by far lower distortion numbers at the same voltage across it. However, if you look at those THD numbers and then look at how many volts would it take to produce the differences we are talking about and then think for a minute about the test itself, you will see that in a real life situation even the worst electrolytic capacitor is rather benign. This is so, because in low power applications there is very little voltage across the cap anyway and the THD, although higher then in the case of a polypropylene capacitor, still is very low indeed and it is not the contributing factor to the overall distortion equation.

                                        Now, I would not advocate the use of electrolytics when a perfectly good plastic cap can be used, but I would not go as far as to say that the sound quality in typical audio low-power applications somehow depends on the type of a capacitor used.

                                        You are bringing up the example of a FET as a novel device that supposedly improves the quality of a sound, - well it is not so. The novel FET is inferior to the much older BJT as far as the overall linearity is concerned. FET has its advantages but only in the area of an ease of use, - for instance FETs are easier to use as the output devices then the Bipolars.

                                        When it comes to sound quality, it is not the components that do the trick; - it is an overall system design that is ultimately responsible for what you get to hear. With this in mind, the 30 year old amplifier will do every bit as good as the modern unit, as long as the design of such grandfatherly amp is good enough for our ears. Important thing to realize here is that the amplifier design is not an art form; - it is pure and unforgiving physics of circuit design and nothing else.

                                        Therefore, as long as the amp has low THD, flat frequency responce and is not driven outside of its design envelope, it will do just fine regardless of what is written on its faceplate. I can never forget a test about 10-12 years ago whereby a $300 Yamaha receiver was compared to a $12,000 product from Pass Labs with nobody being able to tell them apart under the controlled conditions.

                                        You are saying that the ‘sound’ an average receiver proves the point that newer components somehow sound better, well… no, - I completely disagree with that. You see, - amplifiers in general have no sound of their own, they simply cannot have any sound at all if they are designed properly, physics as we understand it does not allow for that, - marketing on the other hand does.

                                        If audio power amplifiers could have a sound then we would call them power tone controls, don’t you agree?

                                        regards,
                                        Victor

                                        Comment

                                        • Eliav
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jul 2005
                                          • 484

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Victor
                                          Karma,

                                          I am well aware regarding the current craze about the electrolytic caps. Yes, it has been shown that the plastic caps, such as the polypropylenes have by far lower distortion numbers at the same voltage across it. However, if you look at those THD numbers and then look at how many volts would it take to produce the differences we are talking about and then think for a minute about the test itself, you will see that in a real life situation even the worst electrolytic capacitor is rather benign. This is so, because in low power applications there is very little voltage across the cap anyway and the THD, although higher then in the case of a polypropylene capacitor, still is very low indeed and it is not the contributing factor to the overall distortion equation.

                                          Now, I would not advocate the use of electrolytics when a perfectly good plastic cap can be used, but I would not go as far as to say that the sound quality in typical audio low-power applications somehow depends on the type of a capacitor used.

                                          You are bringing up the example of a FET as a novel device that supposedly improves the quality of a sound, - well it is not so. The novel FET is inferior to the much older BJT as far as the overall linearity is concerned. FET has its advantages but only in the area of an ease of use, - for instance FETs are easier to use as the output devices then the Bipolars.

                                          When it comes to sound quality, it is not the components that do the trick; - it is an overall system design that is ultimately responsible for what you get to hear. With this in mind, the 30 year old amplifier will do every bit as good as the modern unit, as long as the design of such grandfatherly amp is good enough for our ears. Important thing to realize here is that the amplifier design is not an art form; - it is pure and unforgiving physics of circuit design and nothing else.

                                          Therefore, as long as the amp has low THD, flat frequency responce and is not driven outside of its design envelope, it will do just fine regardless of what is written on its faceplate. I can never forget a test about 10-12 years ago whereby a $300 Yamaha receiver was compared to a $12,000 product from Pass Labs with nobody being able to tell them apart under the controlled conditions.

                                          You are saying that the ‘sound’ an average receiver proves the point that newer components somehow sound better, well… no, - I completely disagree with that. You see, - amplifiers in general have no sound of their own, they simply cannot have any sound at all if they are designed properly, physics as we understand it does not allow for that, - marketing on the other hand does.

                                          If audio power amplifiers could have a sound then we would call them power tone controls, don’t you agree?

                                          regards,
                                          Victor
                                          So Victor, your bottom line is that if a high quality amplifier ( i.e. Levinson/Krell etc.) is well kept ( not overdriven/overheated), there should be minimal to no change in its amplification capabilities (= should sound as good as new) within a reasonable time frame
                                          ( 10-20yrs) ?
                                          Eliav
                                          :T Socrat

                                          Comment

                                          • Victor
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Apr 2002
                                            • 338

                                            #22
                                            Eliav,

                                            Even if the amp is overdriven on a regular basis, still when it is used within its design envelope, it should perform as advertised on day one. Fundamentally solid state electronics has the capacity to outlive us all, if a basic care is taken in terms of its thermal and off-on cycle. Certainly a few things, like a power supply electrolytic caps, might require replacement after 20-30 years of use, and perhaps some adjustments might also be necessary like the offset and bias trim, - nothing more really.

                                            I am not a great fan of Krell and Levinson products because I find them grossly overpriced considering what they do and the alternatives that are available for 40% of their cost. However, if they are the ones that do the trick for you, - then great, - the old Krell is not all that much different from the modern Krell, - certainly not when it comes to its ability to linearly reproduce the signal that it is fed at its input, - i.e. the ‘sound quality’.

                                            regards,
                                            Victor

                                            Comment

                                            • Eliav
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jul 2005
                                              • 484

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Victor
                                              Eliav,

                                              Even if the amp is overdriven on a regular basis, still when it is used within its design envelope, it should perform as advertised on day one. Fundamentally solid state electronics has the capacity to outlive us all, if a basic care is taken in terms of its thermal and off-on cycle. Certainly a few things, like a power supply electrolytic caps, might require replacement after 20-30 years of use, and perhaps some adjustments might also be necessary like the offset and bias trim, - nothing more really.

                                              I am not a great fan of Krell and Levinson products because I find them grossly overpriced considering what they do and the alternatives that are available for 40% of their cost. However, if they are the ones that do the trick for you, - then great, - the old Krell is not all that much different from the modern Krell, - certainly not when it comes to its ability to linearly reproduce the signal that it is fed at its input, - i.e. the ‘sound quality’.

                                              regards,
                                              Victor
                                              Victor, thanks so much
                                              Actually I was giving Krell and levinson as an example for a well -built machine, .
                                              I have recently bought Classe monoblocks ( dealers demo) which are 7 months old and with reportedly low hours ( less then 300 hours), I was wondering whether they could have been deranged in any way. To my eyes they look great. they sound amazing to my ears. they came with full Classe warranty
                                              Thanks for your input
                                              Eliav
                                              :T Socrat

                                              Comment

                                              • NewBuyer
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Feb 2005
                                                • 122

                                                #24
                                                Victor I want to say thanks to you as well. I always enjoy your posts and learn from them.

                                                - Regards

                                                Comment

                                                • bigburner
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • May 2005
                                                  • 2649

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Eliav
                                                  So Victor, your bottom line is that if a high quality amplifier ( i.e. Levinson/Krell etc.) is well kept ( not overdriven/overheated), there should be minimal to no change in its amplification capabilities (= should sound as good as new) within a reasonable time frame
                                                  ( 10-20yrs) ?
                                                  Eliav
                                                  Eliav, I believe Victor's bottom bottom line is that all low-distortion transistor-driven power amps sound the same, regardless of what the listener thinks he may be hearing.

                                                  That amounts to heresy in an environment such as this!

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Karma
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2005
                                                    • 801

                                                    #26
                                                    HI big,
                                                    I'm glad you, and not I, said that. I agree. Further, Victor's attitude is quite typical of the electronics academic. From his point of view, the equations are not to be questioned and test equipment tells the whole story. We will provide therapy by kindly offering an alternative point of view.

                                                    I live and work in an academic environment. I know the symtoms.

                                                    Sparky
                                                    Last edited by Karma; 23 February 2006, 10:40 Thursday.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Aussie Geoff
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Oct 2003
                                                      • 1914

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Eliav
                                                      So Victor, your bottom line is that if a high quality amplifier ( i.e. Levinson/Krell etc.) is well kept ( not overdriven/overheated), there should be minimal to no change in its amplification capabilities (= should sound as good as new) within a reasonable time frame ( 10-20yrs) ?
                                                      I'd also support this - hence my original response re a quality amp that was 10+ years old alreaedy most likely having at least another 5-10 years good life... There are also plenty of people out their who will refurbish these older amps - replacing the capacitors and other components that deteriate with age.

                                                      Geoff

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Karma
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Nov 2005
                                                        • 801

                                                        #28
                                                        HI aussie,
                                                        If by "good life" you mean that the equipment will perform as good as it did when it was new, I agree with you. If not abused real worries are few. Electrolytic capacitors which can suffer with age. Mostly, these are the large power supply filter capacitors which can be easily replaced. When one hears 60Hz hum it is time to replace the entire capacitor bank. Do not replace just one filter capacitor. Pots and switches can get dirty and intermittant. Most of the time they can be cleaned. Panel lights can be replaced. Replace the entire set.

                                                        My issue is this: how good, compared to current equipment, was that performance when new? My position is that even the very best of 30 year old solid state equipment (designed and built in the 1960's and 1970's) will not sonically perform as well as midrange modern equipment.

                                                        I don't hold the position that the older stuff cannot provide enjoyment. If a person is on the road to high end sound they will eventually hear the difference and replace the older stuff with modern stuff. Old equipment is certainly a good place to start to build one's audio system.

                                                        Sparky
                                                        Last edited by Karma; 23 February 2006, 16:32 Thursday.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Victor
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Apr 2002
                                                          • 338

                                                          #29
                                                          Karma and Bigburner,

                                                          "...We will provide therapy by kindly offering an alternative point of view..."

                                                          I like therapy! Let me put myself on the couch here and be hypnotized by the latest and greatest solid state power amplifier. Let’s see, - what will make one well-designed power amplifier sound different from another well designed power amplifier? These days most amps that actually make the sale are reasonably well-designed.

                                                          Could it be the components used, such as transistors? No. In a typical production by a typical company a single amplifier model is manufactured in the thousands. The transistors although possessing the same characteristics on paper actually differ from one another quite a bit; - in fact you will never find two identical transistors. Matching transistors does not explain things either, because the variation init to unit is still there. Therefore if transistors were ‘at fault’ here, - the same model from the same manufacture will sound different depending on who owns it. Naturally it does not happen, - all Krells or Levinsons have the same glorious sound in some circles and all Rotels have an atrocious sound in the same circles.

                                                          Could it be the power supply capacitors or the power transformer, - the very components that many companies are advertising as critical for the ‘sound quality’? No. The signal that ultimately ‘turns’ into music does not go there at all.

                                                          So, - what is it then? Why one amp is somehow better then another? I submit to you that no matter how much you think about it you will never find a reason that you can live with. Any reason you may come up with will be anecdotal and you will dismiss it on the grounds that it does not make any sense.

                                                          However, guys, - I welcome your thoughts on this topic. I am all ‘ears’…Give me therapy or I will die with Rotel under the pillow.

                                                          Regards,
                                                          Victor

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Karma
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2005
                                                            • 801

                                                            #30
                                                            HI Victor,
                                                            I admire your ability to be a good sport in the face of my teasing. You are a good man and I enjoy our banter.

                                                            As for your technical position, I will not try to convert you. Your position saves so much money that it's rational independent of whether it describes reality or not.

                                                            Take Care, Sparky

                                                            Comment

                                                            • bleeding ears
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Nov 2004
                                                              • 435

                                                              #31
                                                              I guess the real bottom line here is, if it sounds good, buy it!

                                                              Just dont listen to any other amps etc after the purchase and you will never want to upgrade.

                                                              But isnt this what it is all about?

                                                              The pursuit of the best sound possible (within your budget)?

                                                              Perhaps this is why it is a never ending pastime.

                                                              Pete

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Victor
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Apr 2002
                                                                • 338

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by Karma
                                                                As for your technical position, I will not try to convert you.
                                                                ...thanks man...

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Victor
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Apr 2002
                                                                  • 338

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by bleeding ears
                                                                  I guess the real bottom line here is, if it sounds good, buy it!
                                                                  Well, - for me I will put it, - if it measures well, - buy it! However, I will never presume to tell you how to spend your money.

                                                                  Originally posted by bleeding ears
                                                                  Just dont listen to any other amps etc after the purchase and you will never want to upgrade.
                                                                  The upgrade must have a reason, other then the box you are looking at simply looks better. Amplifiers have no sound, - so upgrading for sake of upgrading is not advisable in my opinion.

                                                                  Originally posted by bleeding ears
                                                                  The pursuit of the best sound possible (within your budget)?
                                                                  Agree. The best sound is achieved by getting better speakers. This is a place to start.

                                                                  Comment

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