Subwoofer needed with full range speakers?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • bleeding ears
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 435

    Subwoofer needed with full range speakers?

    Hi all, I am finding that when I listen to cd's in stereo my subwoofer contributes very little to the sound.

    It does seem to slightly add very low, almost unheard bass, but the volume level has to be very low or it just muddies the sound and becomes too much.

    I have Energy C9's front speakers which are rated down to 28hz so they are close to full range speakers and they do seem to put out a lot of bass.

    So my question is- Do others with near full range speakers find they get little benefit with a subwoofer for music cd's?

    Or is this muddying of the sound an indication that my sub is not up to the job music wise?

    I have found with dvds the (Australian made Accusound 250watt 10 inch) sub is at times capable of near earthquake like performance, however this is not what makes music sound good.

    Any thoughts or similar experiences with subwoofers and stereo music cd's?

    Thanks Pete
  • miner
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 900

    #2
    Pete,
    I started out with full range speakers - B&W N804 mated with Rotel pre and amp. I listended to this setup for about 4 months before buying a B&W ASW800 sub. The sub added what was missing in my music. The 804 just could not dig deep enough for my liking. I am happy now.

    Comment

    • aud19
      Twin Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2003
      • 16706

      #3
      Depends on the music

      I also have C-9's and for 2-ch I don't use a sub but I have the crossover setup for DPLII Music as an option and for DVD-A I use the sub but no crossover (C-9's play full, bass only if there's a .1 signal)

      I will say that during 2-ch the deepest bass is missing on some tracks but I still prefer the presentation over DPLII for critical listening and the C9's don't have to appologize much for their bass capabilities
      Jason

      Comment

      • bleeding ears
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2004
        • 435

        #4
        miner, how low in Hz can the 804s go? and do you find with the sub on (with cd's) that the sound is somewhat more loose or flabby sounding?

        Also do you have your sub pounding away or is the volume down low so it is just noticeable?

        Comment

        • bleeding ears
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 435

          #5
          Aud19, what sub do you have and do you consider it a good match for the C9's? eg does it blend in well with the fronts?

          Pete

          Comment

          • george_k
            Senior Member
            • Jan 2004
            • 342

            #6
            The vandersteen 2wq is designed and marketed as a musical which works in tandem with your speakers (accepts high-level inputs). For it's price you could mate one with each speaker. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to hear one myself, judging by the favorable words spoken about them I would check them out.

            Comment

            • Shane Martin
              Super Senior Member
              • Apr 2001
              • 2852

              #7
              Generally I find I do not need a subwoofer for music. Based on what you have said about your sub, I think it's likely incapable of delivering what you desire for 2 channel music.

              There are several music subs(if you want to give up HT output) that would work and several others that will do both(but cost $$$). Pick your poisen.

              Comment

              • miner
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2005
                • 900

                #8
                Originally posted by bleeding ears
                miner, how low in Hz can the 804s go? and do you find with the sub on (with cd's) that the sound is somewhat more loose or flabby sounding?

                Also do you have your sub pounding away or is the volume down low so it is just noticeable?
                The N804s go down to 45Hz I believe - not sure of the roll-off though. My sub Xover is set at 50Hz. My volume is setat about 12 o'clock - just noticable. I didn't want a 'pounding away' sound.

                Comment

                • aud19
                  Twin Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 16706

                  #9
                  Originally posted by bleeding ears
                  Aud19, what sub do you have and do you consider it a good match for the C9's? eg does it blend in well with the fronts?

                  Pete
                  I've got an older JBL 12" sub that works and blends pretty well but if I did it over again now I'd likely build a DIY Sono-Sub or buy a HSU/SVS.
                  Jason

                  Comment

                  • NewBuyer
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2005
                    • 122

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Shane Martin
                    ...There are several music subs(if you want to give up HT output) that would work and several others that will do both(but cost $$$). Pick your poisen.
                    For a music-only system: Could you please recommend some of the worthy music subs?

                    Comment

                    • bleeding ears
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 435

                      #11
                      Check out the "REL" website (english made I think) from what I have read and heard they are highly regarded.

                      I too would like to know which subs are high performers for music but I would use it for dvd's as well so I wonder is it possible to get a sub that does both jobs very well?

                      Pete

                      Comment

                      • Shane Martin
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Apr 2001
                        • 2852

                        #12
                        Rel's are good for music(due to configuration) but are sorely lacking for HT usage. I can't remember model but it ran nearly $2k US.

                        In the US, alot of folks seem to like the ACI brand(internet direct) or the Rocket UFW10 as an alternative to the Rel's.

                        For a music only system I'd stick with a sealed sub. If you do HT at all and want output for movies, then you have to sacrifice in some area. Generally if you want both you are going to pay big bucks and yet still sacrifice something. The ACI Maestro is supposedly great. I know some ported subs that sound great for both but they are rather large which tends to turn off the WAF stuff. SVS would be one example though some wives don't mind the size.

                        If you are into DIY, then an IB I've been told is the best of both worlds and sacrifices nothing. Plus it's the ultimate in WAF approval.

                        As always things depend on your budget and your desires/compromises, there are lots of choices.

                        Comment

                        • RobP
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 4747

                          #13
                          Pete, if you dont want to give up anything in both areas (HT and 2 channel) then may I suggest the Martin Logan Descent, it is VERY acurate for 2 channel and can keep up with the biggest subwoofers in the HT realm. There is alot of information in 2 channel that you are missing if you dont have true full range mains.
                          Robert P. 8)

                          AKA "Soundgravy"

                          Comment

                          • bleeding ears
                            Senior Member
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 435

                            #14
                            soundgravy, are you suggesting that 28Hz is not low enough ?

                            I haven't noticed too many speakers that go much lower than that, unless you get into speakers that are priced very highly and probably too highly for me.

                            I have not checked but from what I have noticed, even most of the B&W range dont go that low and yet aren't they considered to be one of the best speakers for 2 channel?

                            With a speaker that goes down to 28Hz (claimed) I just have some doubts as to whether or not I really need or would benefit from upgrading my subwoofer for cd's/2 channel music.

                            I guess what I am asking is- Is the small gap between 28Hz for the front speakers and down to say 20 Hz from the subwoofer going to make much difference with cd's?

                            Is there even any sound on cd's that goes to 20Hz or lower?

                            I will take a look at the ML descent, but I suspect that it is going to cost big time? LOL
                            Thanks Pete

                            Comment

                            • grit
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2005
                              • 580

                              #15
                              Bleeding Ears,

                              I've run 2-ch both with and without my sub (a B&W 700 series sub, well matched to my 703's). I found 2 things - I get "better" bass through the 2-ch fronts than I do when I add the sub. The other is that I can play in analog bypass mode (and I am thus unable to use the sub). Analog bypass provides me with a much more "musical" sound and I would never sacrifice that for any improvement from a sub (unless I was running bookshelf speakers).

                              I've read that most music doesn't even go DOWN to 28Hz (closer to the high 30's in fact). And, as someone pointed out, you need a very accurate, fast subwoofer to sound good with music. I just wouldn't bother with a sub for music if you have a pair of floor standing speakers you like. Their drivers were all deliberately integrated and crossed over to sound good. Enjoy them.
                              Last edited by grit; 24 March 2006, 11:49 Friday.

                              Comment

                              • stewfoo
                                Senior Member
                                • Jul 2005
                                • 275

                                #16
                                I agree with Shane. REL is great for 2ch. But, VERY lacking in the HT realm. I had the Stentor, which is a massive beast. It goes low, very low. But, there is no impact or slam that you look for in HT. Even if your speakers have a response to 29hz. The odds are that they roll off somewhere between 60hz-100hz. I will bet the house that there is nowhere near a flat response past 60hz. The fact that your speakers can reproduce 29 hz doesn't necessarily mean that it can do it flat to 29HZ. It would be nice to get a look at the room response of your speakers and how they interract with your room. Thats why I got the Velodyne DD-18. It has an RTA and graphic interface that allows me to look at the speaker responses and allow me to perfectly equalize and match my sub with it... I am much more of an HT guy though.
                                Stew

                                Comment

                                • bleeding ears
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2004
                                  • 435

                                  #17
                                  Stew, it appears that like most things subwoofers are a compromise to some extent.

                                  I will try to take a look at the response of my speakers and see how they do.

                                  So what is your opinion on your sub for music?

                                  I guess with a sub like that it must definitely add bass?

                                  However is the bass that it adds more loose or flabby sounding compared to straight 2 channel (with cd's) ?

                                  Also how low do your 803's go?

                                  Pete

                                  Comment

                                  • DL86
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Sep 2005
                                    • 271

                                    #18
                                    Hi, I also have an Accusound sw-250 which I am looking at upgrading shortly. I do find the same symptoms as bleeding ears. A bit flabby sounding and not enough definition for music. I have paradigm studio 100 v3 mains which also claim a 28 hz low end response. I do also watch movies and do want a sub that can hit 20 hz with a fair amount of SPL. I am looking at getting a Velodyne SPL 1200 R at the moment. My room isnt fairly big about 6x4x2.3m. If anyone has had any experience with the SPL series I want to know about it. I do think the SPL 1200 R is the perfect sub for me 1000wrms amp, 12 inch driver, huge magnet, sealed, Room Eq small size. If anyone else has any recommendations for me please let me know.

                                    Thanks, David

                                    Comment

                                    • bleeding ears
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2004
                                      • 435

                                      #19
                                      David, the review of the Accusound sub on their website even says that this sub is primarily for home theatre use, but is adequate with music.

                                      So I guess it is no surprise that this monster sub can be bettered when it comes to music.

                                      I too have considered a different sub, including Velodyne.

                                      Should you get one I would be very interested to know your thoughts etc on it. Also what price range is the Velodyne you mentioned?

                                      Pete

                                      Comment

                                      • Karma
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2005
                                        • 801

                                        #20
                                        HI bleeding,
                                        You are making a good point concerning musical sound below, say, 30Hz on CD recordings. I have had various subwoofers (always dual subs and always bi-amped with active crossovers) in various systems for 30 years. Let me talk about my findings. I will define low bass as the range between 30Hz and 20Hz and sub-bass below 20Hz.

                                        For analog vinyl, it's relatively rare to hear low bass. There are some spectacular exceptions like the recordings from Sheffield and some well known classical pieces like the 1812 Overture cannons. Some pipe organ material goes down to sub-bass but only from the largest organs. Most go to 32Hz. Realize that 32Hz, when properly reproduced with power and low distortion, can be spectacular. Most speaker systems will not do this well. There were serious technical problems with all but the very best turntable systems when attempting to play low and sub-bass. The record companies intentionally rolled off the low bass to make the recordings accessible to more customers. However, there is still enough material, especially classical, to justify good bass performance in the low bass. Sub-bass is questionable given the expense of subs that go that low.

                                        CD's are a completely different case. We are living at the end of the rainbow for bass lovers like me. There are several reasons for this change. First, our CD players do not have bass technical limitations. Next, synthesized music has matured. While most acoustic instruments are bass limited, synthesizers are not. They can go to DC if necessary. Anyone who listens to jazz, rock, or pure synthesized material will hear a lot of low bass and often sub-bass. Even newer recordings of classical music have benefited from the technical changes now exhibiting much more low bass than before. I listen to a lot of synthesized music, like Patrick O'Hearn, that give my subs work in the sub-bass. Both my main and bedroom systems are quite capable down to about 15Hz and I love it! I only wish my rooms were bigger to really let the bass bloom.

                                        I consider HT a special case. There are a plethora of booms, bangs, and thuds that go well into the sub-bass. I love those too. But, I find low bass lacking from any but the LFE channel. Generally, it seems that the low frequencies roll off below about 50Hz for acoustic sounds in the main channels. But at the same time the LFE channel can be very active. This bifurcation of the frequency range makes selecting an all-around sub difficult. If we use our systems for both stereo music and home theater, we are forced to make a choice between HT thuds and musical bass. Most subs don't do both well.

                                        Newbie’s to bass tend to think they can get great all-around sub performance from inexpensive subs, say less than $2000 each. It ain't going to happen. Great bass in all frequency ranges and at high power and low distortion comes at a great price and is very rare. Personally, I prioritize music over HT. But I still want good thuds that flap my pant legs. I chose dual B&W ASW800 subs for my bedroom system. For music, even synthesized, these subs integrate beautifully with my 805S's and still provide decent, but not great, HT performance. It's a trade off I can live with especially since the thuds really are quite good.

                                        To directly answer your question; yes, I think there are plenty of reasons to have good low bass performance and even sub-bass if you can live with the expense and have the room size to justify the effort. I advocate that one should always spend more rather than less on subwoofers. Great bass is expensive and that has not changed.

                                        Sparky

                                        Comment

                                        • ThomasW
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 10934

                                          #21
                                          A 28Hz published spec means nothing when it comes to the real world performance. 28Hz is probably the 3dB down point. And that's probably not happening at the listening postion at any significant SPL because....

                                          So called 'fullrange' loudspeakers don't move a lot of air since the drivers are small. This creates what's called 'compression' aka radiation resistance. A cone can only move a certain amount of air regardless of how much power is forced into it.

                                          To accurately reproduce bass displacement is EVERYTHING. This means multiple 12" or 15" are what's need to do the job. The grossly misleading marketing concept that small drivers are needed to reproduce 'fast' bass is just as accurate as the earth being flat or the moon is green cheese.

                                          What's important for high quality bass is
                                          1) proper room placement
                                          2) proper room placement
                                          3) proper room placement
                                          4) proper room placement
                                          5) proper room placement
                                          6) large amount of air movement
                                          7) powerful amp
                                          8 ) quick acceleration/deceleration of the cone
                                          9) a low "Q" box tuning

                                          (note that with a properly sized motor structure one can accelerate a manhole cover as fast as a 6" cone driver and that acceleration is different than speed.)

                                          Poor quality in room bass is usually a function of either a grossly mistuned sub, or more likely the negative interaction of the sub with the geometry of the room. The largest cause of so called 'boom' is room interaction (placement) followed by a lack of proper acoustic treatment, and a failure to EQ.

                                          A good sub is a good sub, for either music or HT. Don't let the marketing department steer you otherwise.

                                          If one doesn't think a sub is need for 'music' take a look at this plot of the 42Hz "E" string from a bass guitar.


                                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                          Comment

                                          • wkhanna
                                            Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                            • Jan 2006
                                            • 5673

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by ThomasW
                                            What's important for high quality bass is
                                            1) proper room placement
                                            2) proper room placement
                                            3) proper room placement
                                            4) proper room placement
                                            5) proper room placement
                                            6) large amount of air movement
                                            7) powerful amp
                                            8 ) quick acceleration/deceleration of the cone
                                            9) a low "Q" box tuning
                                            TW, I think you forgot #10)...I would make a guess it is 'proper room placement'?

                                            Originally posted by ThomasW
                                            A good sub is a good sub, for either music or HT. Don't let the marketing department steer you otherwise.
                                            So glad you found time to give input to this post, as it is a question I am very interested in, and your advice is always sound and acurrate,IMHO
                                            _


                                            Bill

                                            Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                            ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                            FinleyAudio

                                            Comment

                                            • norpus
                                              Member
                                              • Oct 2005
                                              • 60

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by wkhanna
                                              TW, I think you forgot #10)...I would make a guess it is 'proper room placement'?



                                              So glad you found time to give input to this post, as it is a question I am very interested in, and your advice is always sound and acurrate,IMHO
                                              Agreed - good and logical info in this thread
                                              I have just placed an IB sub in floor in my room - I'm guessing I got 6-9 right (2 x Avalanche 18's) but hoping 1-5 and 10th were selected correctly or I will be toast trying to change it :lol:
                                              (Must say it does feel/sound good to my ears so far)
                                              Cheers
                                              Norpus
                                              "He who dies first with the most toys wins"

                                              Comment

                                              • gross30
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jun 2005
                                                • 282

                                                #24
                                                Very informative thread. I almost went with a single DD-18 to replace 2 smaller Mirage 12" subs. After talking to Geoff, the manager where I was making my purchase,he strongly steered me towards (2) DD 15's as opposed to (1) 18. Also cost wise the (2) DD 18's were just not on the menu. Placement,Placement,Placement is so true. I tried a few different ways with the new 15's and settled with what my room would allow. I have not had time to go through the on-screen yet with these subs, as I just did the quick set-up. I am definately happy with the dual subs setup. A little more time and some playing with microphone placement etc, and I should be able to tune them for my own listening pleasure. I.M.H.O. I am very glad I stayed with 2 and didn't go with the larger 1 sub. They really sound great !

                                                Comment

                                                • Spearmint
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Sep 2004
                                                  • 333

                                                  #25
                                                  Very informative thread indeed, thanks Thomas for your valued input as well.

                                                  I am going from 1 12” sub to 2x 12” subs to extend my mains for 2ch duties, and leaving my 2x 15” subs for HT duties. The way I have both HT & 2ch integrated at the moment gives me great listening pleasure for both mediums. I am hoping that having dual subs will give some added improvement in the 2ch stakes.
                                                  Richard

                                                  "Sometimes it is easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission... "

                                                  Comment

                                                  • alebonau
                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                    • Oct 2005
                                                    • 992

                                                    #26
                                                    to bleeding ears the OP as you say you probably do need somethign a bit better than the accusound in the sub department. I've got a richter thor that does an adequate sofa shaking, room rumbling job for a bit of fun for HT but I tried it for music quite a long time back and really for 2ch it just does not cut it. Yes its bass is slow and woolly compared to the much slicker sound of my mission mains. I for one would much rather sacrifice some low end extension than ruin the refinement of my mains by running the thor with it.

                                                    Subs like the richter thor and the accusound are built to a price, probably doesn't have a good enough amp(not enough power? too much distortion?), not a good enough driver(not light/stiff enough?, poor design?, not a good enough motor?), maybe it has poor cabinet design/construction - just compare these subs to some of the others mentioned here and the differences are soon apparent.

                                                    I think in this case your mains purely outclass your sub and a better sub is required if you wish to use one for low end extension.

                                                    That said you don't mention if you've tried anything in regards room placement and also don't mention how you have got these integrated with the mains - perhaps some experimentation with xover points and levels might help the result with better integration ?

                                                    For the sub gurus on here I have a few questions ?

                                                    - Why is it Velodyne, Paradigm use a servo to accurately control their sub drivers. Just a properly sized motor structure and powerfull amp not good enough for control ?

                                                    - Why is it Velodyne suggest different servo settings for music and movies ? With music setting exerting full control of the servo on the driver and movie setting using a more relaxed servo control ?

                                                    - Why is it the paradigm servo 15 does not have adjustable servo control ? does that make it a compromise for music and HT or is it better for one or the other ?

                                                    - Why is it the Rel Stadium I've heard does a great job for 2ch and music, goes extremely low and yet many others say its not so good with HT - not enough slam ?

                                                    just a few questions in my mind, will be interested on peoples thoughts ...
                                                    "Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."

                                                    Comment

                                                    • DL86
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Sep 2005
                                                      • 271

                                                      #27
                                                      Just watch this video and it will answer most of your questions.

                                                      home theater, high fidelity, high end, amplifiers, receivers, projectors, movies, vcrs, cds, laserdiscs, stereo, surround sound, dolby digital, dts, subwoofer, speakers, reviews, video, audio, dvd, digital audio, tubes, consumer electronics, home entertainment, preamplifiers, processors, cables, TVs, AC line conditioners, velodyne, monitor audio, sunfire, paradigm, meridian, nordost, exact power, redgum, osborn, m&k, mirage, perpetual technologies, anthem, sonic frontiers, htdv, dss


                                                      Velodyne suggests lower servo settings for movies because it will sound more boomy and some people may prefer this. If you want accuracy set the servo to maximum. I recon the servo 15 doesn't have adjustable servo because they have selected the optimum servo setting. The highest servo setting is always the best.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • gross30
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Jun 2005
                                                        • 282

                                                        #28
                                                        - Why is it Velodyne suggest different servo settings for music and movies ? With music setting exerting full control of the servo on the driver and movie setting using a more relaxed servo control ?
                                                        Hello alebonau, I don't have an answer for this question, but I have a comment on the different servo settings. On the remote for the DD 15's there are 4 pre-set settings for (1) Action/adventure (2)Movies (3)Pop/rock (4) Jazz/classical. Then 5 and 6 are custom and eq-defeat. I have only used (3) and (2) and there was definately a difference. My wife and I watched one movie so far (Walk the line) and compared to the music setting, the live concert scenes sounded incredible. Just like being there. As for the music setting, some recordings needed volume adjustment on the subs etc. I mostly listen to older recordings and found it is very handy to have some control over the LFE'S. I really like the different servo settings. As for why they have the different settings ? No idea, but it sounds good and we're happy !!

                                                        Comment

                                                        • ThomasW
                                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 10934

                                                          #29
                                                          I'm not up to watching a 25 min video, so I may have it wrong...

                                                          Servo's do a couple things. They allow the box to be physically smaller, and they control distortion.

                                                          Any adjustability is simply changing the interaction between the driver and it's servo controller.

                                                          Having an adjustable servo simply means more circuits/ complexity and probably higher cost.

                                                          I've not heard many commercially built subs. And never even seen let alone hear a REL so I really can't comment about them

                                                          For loudspeakers there's a thing called 'Hoffman's Iron Law'. The "Cliff's Notes" version of the law is that there are 3 main characteristics with regard to subwoofer design. One has control over any 2 of 3 characteristics, but the third is fixed by physics. So the designer chooses the 2 they think are are important and father physics chooses the third. The variables in no particular order are; how low the speaker can play, how loud it can play, how small the box can be.

                                                          Electronic circuitry allows some bending of Hoffman's law but not much.

                                                          When you look at any sub design take into consideration Mr Hoffman's law.

                                                          Loudspeaker are the most overpriced things in audio. For really high-end designs the retail cost is 9 times mfgr's cost. Subs are the easiest speakers to build roughly 1/10th complexity of a fullrange design.

                                                          So if one has any DIY skills, and access to minimal tools, one can build a DIY sub for 1/4th-1/2 the cost of a retail offering. Those living outside the US tend to get screwed since the US is the world hub for low cost, high performance sub drivers.

                                                          Some car audio drivers work fine for home use. However one must know what to look for when buying a driver made by a car audio company with the intent of using it in a home system.

                                                          Those living 'down-under' have a few interesting fellows that provide DIY help. Bill Collison, Rod Elliot and Rob Cowan
                                                          Last edited by ThomasW; 27 March 2006, 15:14 Monday.

                                                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                          Comment

                                                          • alebonau
                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                            • Oct 2005
                                                            • 992

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by DL86
                                                            Just watch this video and it will answer most of your questions.

                                                            home theater, high fidelity, high end, amplifiers, receivers, projectors, movies, vcrs, cds, laserdiscs, stereo, surround sound, dolby digital, dts, subwoofer, speakers, reviews, video, audio, dvd, digital audio, tubes, consumer electronics, home entertainment, preamplifiers, processors, cables, TVs, AC line conditioners, velodyne, monitor audio, sunfire, paradigm, meridian, nordost, exact power, redgum, osborn, m&k, mirage, perpetual technologies, anthem, sonic frontiers, htdv, dss


                                                            Velodyne suggests lower servo settings for movies because it will sound more boomy and some people may prefer this. If you want accuracy set the servo to maximum. I recon the servo 15 doesn't have adjustable servo because they have selected the optimum servo setting. The highest servo setting is always the best.
                                                            Thanks for posting for those that have, appreciate the responses. Specially thanks DL86 for the link to the velodyne Bruce Hall video/interview. It actually is well worth having a look at if anyone have not seen it.

                                                            Myself taken some very good points from it. For those not keen on watching the whole of it I’ll attempt to recount off the top of my head some of the points of interest (please correct me if I get any of it the wrong way around) :

                                                            Velodyne have been using servo technology since the 80s. With Chris and Dave hall starting off by going around stores demonstrating its benefit.

                                                            Subs usually exhibit anything from 10%-30% distortion

                                                            Velodyne believe in sealed subs – as being most accurate, with ported or ‘slotted subs’ to be a source of distortion?

                                                            Distortion effects with subs can result for instance with a 20hz tone not just being a 20hz tone but creates tones much higher in the frequency response upto 150hz.

                                                            Speakers in general are terribly inefficient as motors, there are all sorts of sources of distortion. Cone flex, coils heating, variations in spring constant of the assembly etc. Speakers are biggest source of distortion. Every speaker has character – when people are saying a speaker is warm or whatever what theyre talking about is distortion. Cleanest sounding speakers with least amount of distortion he mentioned was the Quad ESLs.

                                                            2-3% distortion would probably be a more acceptable level for subs. Servo technology reduces distortion to <0.5-1%. Because of the level of distortion of most subs its very hard to mate a sub to clean sounding speakers like quads. Servo subs have no problem with doing that.

                                                            Now in regards servo control he did a little show and tell explaining how it all worked. Basically he said that normally the servo samples at 16,000/sec. To provide looser servo control, the software simply samples at say 5000/sec. So no additional circuitry/complexity is needed or used for adjusting servo control.

                                                            In regards the effect of tighter and looser control. Basically with looser servo control distortion increases. With tighter servo control distortion is decreased.

                                                            The effect on sound with servo control is pretty simple. Eg play that 20hz tone with a servo sub and you’ll hear nothing. He mentioned how people will then keep turning it up and turning it up and still theres nothing. Back of the servo control, distortion kicks in and what you start hearing now is distortion. He mentioned what people often complain about is servo subs sound too quiet ? – reason they sound quiet is theres very little distortion present that your hearing compared to your typical sub with a lot more distortion.

                                                            Velodyne are very confident with their product with servo control to reduce distortion and the built in sms to counter room placement issues.

                                                            All of this just sales guff ?, product spin ?…maybe but damn its very convincing.

                                                            Some of my summations from all this to help try answer my questions…

                                                            The different settings on their servo subs ? well for music obviously full servo control for least distortion. For movies you can back off the servo for a fuller sound with more impact but I guess then what your hearing is distortion. Though I guess some people might prefer that fuller sound for a bit more of the fun factor.

                                                            Helps to some extent explain why my richter is a good bit of fun with HT but maybe that’s with high amounts of distortion? which with music is not so much fun !

                                                            The Rel subs? maybe they are a very good design with low distortion and do a great job for music but when it comes to HT they don’t sound as loud as other higher distortion designs ?

                                                            Anyway thats jsut my take on it at present, others probably think other wise and have somethign else to say.
                                                            Last edited by alebonau; 28 March 2006, 04:57 Tuesday.
                                                            "Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."

                                                            Comment

                                                            • DL86
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Sep 2005
                                                              • 271

                                                              #31
                                                              For the first time ever I heard a DD-15 subwoofer at my local hi-fi shop. And boy was I gobsmacked. I mean just how CLEAN was the bass comming out of that thing. I think that video/interview is quite valid. They were playing star wars epIII in the first scene this large spaceship appears. My Acussound would just fall apart with loud port noises and what not. The DD-15 however just produced pure bass loud deep responsive tight and I felt a little bit of pain in my ears at the time. Whatever was on the track thats EXACTLY what it played. It gave nothing and took nothing from what the source material already is. There was in my mind absolutly zero distortion that my ear could pick out. There was none of that Boom or overhang that my accusound is accustomned to producing. Then they played a drum disc. You could have swore you were hearing a real bass drum. The bass was just perfect what better way could I describe it.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • bleeding ears
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2004
                                                                • 435

                                                                #32
                                                                DL86, thanks for the info on your Velodyne audition, did you get to listen to a music cd with the Velodyne running?

                                                                Most subs will do well with movies but as I am sure we alll here are welll aware, when listening to a cd, the sound from the sub can change very much.

                                                                I still have troubles understanding how a sub produces bass with cds, that some say does not even exist on most cds. Perhaps it is often the front speaker bass that is being heard and not the sub bass.

                                                                The Accusound SW 250 does pretty good with movies, but the Velodynes are apparently as you are finding, in a different league, performance and price wise.

                                                                What is a DD15 worth? probably, at least 5 times the cost of the Accusound so it would have to be an astonishing difference to justify the cost I guess.

                                                                I think a good middle of the road sort of test which may give some indication of music and movie performance of a sub is to play a music dvd.

                                                                Hell freezes over (an excellent recording) is a good one.
                                                                If find that listening for a tight sounding bass, especially at the begining of Hotel california to be a good test. Everyone knows what a drum or bass guitar should sound like, but few have heard a real explosion or earthquake etd

                                                                The bass guitar in other songs can also get a touch flabby if things are not just right. For me it is a fine line between too little bass and too much flabby bass.

                                                                I am probably a bit late in discovering this disc as anyone into audio would probably already own it however, I recommend this disc to everyone, I didnt even like the eagles stuff before I got this disc, now I never stop playing it. Highly recommended!

                                                                the whole sub for movies v's music cd's is facinating me and makes me wonder if a sub is actually needed for music cd's.

                                                                Any comments?

                                                                Pete

                                                                Comment

                                                                • ThomasW
                                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                                  • 10934

                                                                  #33
                                                                  I still have troubles understanding how a sub produces bass with Cd's, that some say does not even exist on most Cd's. Perhaps it is often the front speaker bass that is being heard and not the sub bass.
                                                                  No speaker 'create' bass that isn't on the recording. However one can buy Cd's with data as low as 1/8th Hz (it's a Space Shuttle launch). I own multiple music Cd's with significant subsonic/infrasonic information.

                                                                  ('Pedal' synths playing subsonics are frequently used even at live concerts. The most recent "Yes" concert I attended, the entire outdoor venue shook when a pedal synth was used augment the bass guitar. It was amazing to experience)

                                                                  I have a special sub killer Cd I made up to take around to Hi-Fi shows to test the mettle of the various offerings from the sub makers. The only subs not brought to their knees by this disc were a pair of subs made by Epiphany Audio (eCubes). Each sub contains a pair of 18" drivers powered by a 1500 watt amp and and EQed with a Linkwitz transform circuit. We had the 8" thick concrete floor vibrating until that skinny little geek Robert Harley showed up and everyone decided to kowtow to his royal highness... :roll:

                                                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Spearmint
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Sep 2004
                                                                    • 333

                                                                    #34
                                                                    What is the general concessus regarding sub types for music. I was under the impression if the sub is built right there should be little advantage with the different designs, about the only positive with going sealed is the physical size of the cabinet.

                                                                    As a rough rule of thumb is this correct?
                                                                    Richard

                                                                    "Sometimes it is easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission... "

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • wkhanna
                                                                      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                                      • 5673

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Spearmint
                                                                      the only positive with going sealed is the physical size of the cabinet.
                                                                      From following this thread, I too was wanting to ask, Is sealed a better desing ( in general ) for a music application?

                                                                      And in a perfect world, so to speak, would THE best placement be in the 2D geometric center of room?
                                                                      _


                                                                      Bill

                                                                      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                      FinleyAudio

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Karma
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2005
                                                                        • 801

                                                                        #36
                                                                        HI Spear,
                                                                        There is no pat answer to your question. It all depends on your taste and how well the given design is executed. The various approaches all have their strengths and weaknesses.

                                                                        Personally, I like sealed boxes with no servos. This is a design that derives from acoustic suspension designs with their roots back with the classic Acoustic Research AR-2 and AR-3A speakers from the middle 1950's. I think they give the tightest bass. The small box is a nice side benefit. They work BECAUSE the box is small.

                                                                        I will repeat again. Use your ears. In hi fi, there are very few answers that can be definitely stated without exceptions.

                                                                        Sparky

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • grit
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Jan 2005
                                                                          • 580

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Pete,

                                                                          For what it's worth, I completely agree with your assessment. I have full range speakers up front and turn the sub off. It's only used for HT.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • gross30
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Jun 2005
                                                                            • 282

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Pete; just a comment on whether a sub is needed for music cd's. I.M.H.O., I really am enjoying the (2) subs for music listening. For me, it just brings everything to another level. As for the "Hell freezes over" disc. It does sound incredible. Another suggestion you might try if you haven't already, is "Steve Earle; Copperhead Road". This recording sounds great. As for the price for the DD-15's, I will just say that the final deal for (2) subs was a deal I could not pass up. Hope you find what your'e looking for...dg

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • David G
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Jan 2005
                                                                              • 170

                                                                              #39
                                                                              I prefer sealed subs for their smaller (hence more rigid) enclosures, lower group delay and inherent protection from overload when driven well below Fs (unlike a ported design). Sealed main speakers integrate much better with a sub too.

                                                                              You really shouldn't expect to be hearing much from your sub if your mains are floor standers. There is little information below 30Hz (music), and also remember that if the hearing threshold at 20Hz is 80dB, then if you listen to your mains or sub independently, you may be below that threshold, but together their combined output WILL be audible.

                                                                              As for this talk of huge 15" subs with a 2 inch Xmax, I think if you value your hearing, neighbours & sanity, and are past the age of trying to impress your friends, give them a miss. Mounted close to the floor, especially in a corner 2 x decent 10" or 12" subs should be plenty for a normal living room, and your wife will appreciate it too

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • comeup
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Jul 2005
                                                                                • 356

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Pete

                                                                                I went with a small boxed sub from Rel the Q201E that I use for music & HT, but pricey.I like the boxed subs do to the fact that they're usaully not boomy and sound great with music. I had a B&W ASW 1000 12 inch with a port hole that that was good with HT, but was lousy with music. With the Rel I gave up some lows with HT which is o.k. for me because my HT sound is more accurate now without unnessary lows that I hated with the B&W. Even with volume and freq turned down you could still hear lows when there was nothing going on, can't stand big boomy subs especially with music. The closed subs still sound great with movies even better to me, but that is a matter of opinion. If you love music do not get a sub with a port hole, because you will hear some unwanted bass at times. Every port hole sub I owned I was always running to and from the sub trying to get it right. Just my thought.

                                                                                let your bleeding Ears do the job......

                                                                                peace brother
                                                                                Blake

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • DL86
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Sep 2005
                                                                                  • 271

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  I just had a listen to a velodyne SPL-1000 R. I just couldn't find any weak spot with this sub. The bass sounded very authorative heaps better than the cht-12r which I did a side by side comparison with. The bass extended low played acceptably loud and just sounded great really enjoyed it. There was no comparison with my accusound sw-250. The spl-1000 r started and stopped as quickly as possible and you could really enjoy the beat of the music being played. My accusound is just annoying when it comes to music, cannot bear listening to it. SPL - R vs DD I recon there is absolutly nothing wrong with the SPL-R series and from what I have heard I could happily live with an SPL-R sub if you really want the best yeah the DD series is it. Still haven't heard the SPL-1200 R which I intend on buying, but from what I heard from the SPL-1000 R I will be making my order shortly. Velodyne also announced the realese of the SPL-1500 R in may, a 15 inch version of the SPL series. Might get the 1500 R later down the track with the 1 year upgrade policy offered by my dealer.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • wkhanna
                                                                                    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                                                    • 5673

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    The Two subs on my short list are the SVS 10” ISD and the HSU STF-1, both of which are ported. But I am a Music listener, looking for the best possible integration of the sub for 2-ch first, and will accept any result in HT. I too, am not a fan of Boom for Boom’s sake.

                                                                                    Does anybody have info on other brands of subs that are not ported? I would love to have a REL, but that is not realistic with a budget of under $500. Maybe a kit box and amp from PE with a good driver is my best option.

                                                                                    Any Ideas or Recommendations?

                                                                                    TIA
                                                                                    _


                                                                                    Bill

                                                                                    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                                    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                                    FinleyAudio

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • bleeding ears
                                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                                      • Nov 2004
                                                                                      • 435

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      DL 86, its great to hear that the Velodynes are so good.
                                                                                      Which dealer are you auditioning the subs at? and have you talked price yet?

                                                                                      Unfortunately its not good to hear that the Accusound cannot compete with the Velodynes. It could cause a bout of upgrade itis

                                                                                      Ebay might see my sub auctioned soon. LOL

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Race Car Driver
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Mar 2005
                                                                                        • 1537

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I just added a sub to my 2 ch listening this week. And i can say its deff helped! Much more enjoyable.

                                                                                        BUT... things i KNOW im lacking!

                                                                                        Room treatment.. room treatement... room treatment... and... more power!

                                                                                        my room and amp dont do the 802s justice, but it have to deal with the room, nothing else I can do.

                                                                                        The sub works great for movies too!
                                                                                        B&W

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • DL86
                                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                                          • Sep 2005
                                                                                          • 271

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Ah, I listend to the spl-1000r and cht-12r at Cabramatta Hi-Fi they gave me a price of $2100 for the 1200R. I listend to the dd-15 at pacific hi-fi at Liverpool. Most likely im gonna be buying from pacific hi-fi because they provide a 1 year upgrade policy depending on what price they give me. Also gonna see whats the best Len wallis can do for me.

                                                                                          Yeah, I guess you will also see mine on ebay too LOL. One problem shipping. I'm gonna look into startrack express courier services.

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          Working...
                                                                                          😀
                                                                                          😂
                                                                                          🥰
                                                                                          😘
                                                                                          🤢
                                                                                          😎
                                                                                          😞
                                                                                          😡
                                                                                          👍
                                                                                          👎
                                                                                          Searching...Please wait.
                                                                                          An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                                                                                          Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                                                                          An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                                                                                          Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                                                                          An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                                                                                          There are no results that meet this criteria.
                                                                                          Search Result for "|||"