will this work? cd player directly to amp

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  • locomk
    Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 91

    will this work? cd player directly to amp

    I have a Music hall maverick sacd/cd player. the player uses a great dac and the sound quality is great. the player has adjustible output levels up to 2V. the output level can be changed from 0-96 at 1 step increments. can i use this as a temporary pre-amp? and just run the cd player directly into the amp for two channel.
  • Karma
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 801

    #2
    HI,
    Yes you can. In fact many very high end systems do it just this way. It produces the most direct signal path to the amp. I do something very similar in my system.

    Be careful to keep the cables as short as possible. 1 meter is fine. I think you will like what you hear.

    Sparky

    Comment

    • locomk
      Member
      • Dec 2005
      • 91

      #3
      thank you sparky, I did listen to some speakers once using a integrated cd player/preamp, but didn't know if the maverick will work in the same fashion. i'll give it a try and post my results

      Comment

      • NonSense
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2003
        • 138

        #4
        That will work, but you will likely be sacrificing sound quality. Results will depend on the maximum input voltage swing, and gain of the amplifier as well as the type of volume control employed by the player (analog or digital domain). Most players perform their best when their volume control is set to maximum or near maximum conditions. They were not really designed for this type of application. (I sometimes think that it is just a convenience to turn down the volume using the CD remote when the phone rings etc.)

        For example: My amplifier will deliver its' full 200W output when presented with a 1.3V input swing. Therefore, under this circumstance, You would need to turn the CD output near or below the 50% mark to get a reasonable listening level at the speakers. Generally, you notice significant degradation in the quatlity of the analog output when employed at these levels.

        But to answer your question, it will work. Temporary should be the goal for best performance.


        Bruce
        Bruce

        Comment

        • locomk
          Member
          • Dec 2005
          • 91

          #5
          thanks for your response everyone. currently i'm using my integrated yamaha receiver (rx-v3300) as a preamp hooked up to my parasound amp (250x2), so i'm sure the musichall will sound better. but bruce, you bring up a great point with different performance at different levels. i'm not sure what input voltage puts out full power. i know the parasound pre-amp will put out up to 8v before clipping according to it's specs.

          Comment

          • Karma
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2005
            • 801

            #6
            Originally posted by NonSense
            That will work, but you will likely be sacrificing sound quality. Results will depend on the maximum input voltage swing, and gain of the amplifier as well as the type of volume control employed by the player (analog or digital domain). Most players perform their best when their volume control is set to maximum or near maximum conditions. They were not really designed for this type of application. (I sometimes think that it is just a convenience to turn down the volume using the CD remote when the phone rings etc.)

            But to answer your question, it will work. Temporary should be the goal for best performance.


            Bruce
            HI Bruce,
            Most players do not have volume controls. The assumption is that the unit will interface to a preamp or to a power amp with level controls. Those that do have volume controls are designed exactly for this application. A blanket statement that audio quality will suffer, I think, is unjustified.

            As you probably know, volume control can be implemented in many ways. These could include control in the digital domain, or a simple series pot or variable feedback on either the output stage or upstream.

            Without specific knowledge of the volume control circuit it is presumptuous to assume degradation, IMO. I have listened to many very fine systems using this technique that exhibit no audible downside.

            So, if you have specific knowledge, please enlighten us. I have never heard your view expresed before nor do I think it is true as long as R/C effects are minimized by keeping cable lengths reasonable. But this is a caviat that applies to any line level signal.

            Sparky
            Last edited by Karma; 21 December 2005, 00:56 Wednesday.

            Comment

            • Bob
              Senior Member
              • Jul 2000
              • 802

              #7
              I have a cd player with a volume control and still use a pre amp. The reason is pretty simple. A pre amp is more than just a volume attenuater, which is all the cd player volume controls are.

              Comment

              • Karma
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2005
                • 801

                #8
                HI Bob,
                You are almost next door to where I grew up in Manhattan Beach. I haven't lived there since 1967 though.

                Yes, there are a lot of good reasons to use a preamp. But improving the audio signal isn't one of them. The preamp, even the best of the breed, passes the audio signal through a mutitude of circuit boards, components, switches and connectors. Each of these degrade the signal slightly.

                For example, my Audio Research SP11 Mk 2 hybred tube preamp, one of the finest ever made, has a bypass switch. When it is engaged, the tape monitor switches, the balance control and a couple of other switches are bypassed. By switching between no bypass and bypass, one can clearly hear the effects of eliminating the extra switches and wiring.

                Personally, I like what preamps offer. But don't kid yourself. In most cases the best preamp is no preamp.

                Sparky

                Comment

                • dyazdani
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Oct 2005
                  • 7032

                  #9
                  I've found it varies depending on the equipment as to my preference.

                  I tried a CAL CL-15 hooked directly to an ARC D130 and then also through a Sonic Frontiers Line 2. I preferred the use of the pre-amp in that instance.

                  In a later system, I had a Levinson 39 direct to Sonic Frontiers Power 3s and later to a Levinson 333. I liked the direct connection better in that case.

                  Not sure if it's the particular volume control or what that causes it to go one way or the other. Probably a combination of that and how the each piece of equipment compliments each other as a whole.

                  I too have had similar experience with the "bypass" switches.
                  Danish

                  Comment

                  • NonSense
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2003
                    • 138

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Karma
                    HI Bruce,
                    Most players do not have volume controls. The assumption is that the unit will interface to a preamp or to a power amp with level controls. Those that do have volume controls are designed exactly for this application. A blanket statement that audio quality will suffer, I think, is unjustified.

                    As you probably know, volume control can be implemented in many ways. These could include control in the digital domain, or a simple series pot or variable feedback on either the output stage or upstream.

                    Without specific knowledge of the volume control circuit it is presumptuous to assume degradation, IMO. I have listened to many very fine systems using this technique that exhibit no audible downside.

                    So, if you have specific knowledge, please enlighten us. I have never heard your view expresed before nor do I think it is true as long as R/C effects are minimized by keeping cable lengths reasonable. But this is a caviat that applies to any line level signal.

                    Sparky

                    Sparky

                    Sorry for the double posting, but I thought I would slit it up to respond to each message.

                    I won't dispute your personal results, and I was trying not to make a blanket statement either. You will notice that I also used the terms, most, and likely, as with everything your results will differ.

                    This type of volume control can usually be split into two types Digital and analog.

                    On the digital side, volume control is generally performed by reducing the value of the digital word at the input of the DAC at the time of conversion. For a 24bit word used for SACD, the effects of attenuation are immediate from a technical point of view. Audibly, it may take a few bits. If the maximum number of bits are used to produce the 2V swing, how many bits remain if you are forced to operate at 0.8V to get a reasonable listening level for example.

                    With regards to the analog side, manufacturers of high quality pre-amps spend alot of time and effort in constructing high quality potentiometers or intricate attenuation networks to ensure the highest quality of sound. I am just suggesting that the use of a digital potentiometer or integrated volume control IC, like a Pacifc Microsonics PMD-200 or Burr-Brown PGA-2311 may result in inferior sonic qualities when compared to a well designed pre-amp circuit. I don't know what the Music Hall uses, so it is not possible to comment.


                    However, I do have some experience in this type of application as I currently use a cd player w/ volume control directly connected to an amplifier. I spent a great deal of time auditioning some great players, researching their technique and getting feedback from others' experiences.

                    Some of the players I auditioned were the Shanling, Vincent, and Cary. All were great players, and all performed at their best when their volume settings were at (or near) their maxmum. They still had good performance with the volume control, but in my opinion, they couldn't beat the performance of a pre- with settings set to their max. (The additional price of purchasing a pre- was not factored into the experiment.)

                    I ended up settling on a player that offered a digital technique coupled with an integrated 4 position fixed attenuator. The system first converts the 16 bit information to 24 bits. This allows the 16 bits to slide up and down the 24 bit conversion output to offer a margin of volume control without sacrificing bits of the original content. The digital control is from 0-100, but the signal will only retain the entire 16 bits down to a control setting of 87 (if I recall correctly). Beyond this value, sonic degradation begins from a technical point of view. The idea is to set the attenuator such that your nominal listening level sits in a range of 87-100 to ensure the best possible quality. The attenuator has 4 settings giving 4 possible max output swings for the 100 value. (0.6, 1.2, 2.4 and 4.8 volts if I recall correctly).


                    For my application I was able to find a setting where the output swing matched the amplifier gain at my desired listening levels without sacrificing quality. I generally keep the volume setting within a range of 10 values, so it's not a problem. I was able to make it work to my satisfaction when compared to the pre-amp alternative. This may not always be the case.

                    I still havn't ruled out buying a good pre-amp down the road.


                    Nothing beats doing your own homework to find what works best for your situation.


                    Thanks
                    Bruce

                    Comment

                    • NonSense
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2003
                      • 138

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Karma
                      HI Bob,
                      You are almost next door to where I grew up in Manhattan Beach. I haven't lived there since 1967 though.

                      Yes, there are a lot of good reasons to use a preamp. But improving the audio signal isn't one of them. The preamp, even the best of the breed, passes the audio signal through a mutitude of circuit boards, components, switches and connectors. Each of these degrade the signal slightly.

                      For example, my Audio Research SP11 Mk 2 hybred tube preamp, one of the finest ever made, has a bypass switch. When it is engaged, the tape monitor switches, the balance control and a couple of other switches are bypassed. By switching between no bypass and bypass, one can clearly hear the effects of eliminating the extra switches and wiring.

                      Personally, I like what preamps offer. But don't kid yourself. In most cases the best preamp is no preamp.

                      Sparky


                      The second comment:

                      I totally agree that a pre-amp won't impove the audio signal, but it may offer improvement over the alternative method of volume control. Specifically if that alternative method can be shown to degrade sonic performance. The final result is what counts.

                      I have also heard the improvement that you refer to regarding the Tape input. Since there is no need to feedback the Tape Input to the Tape Record Out, it has the luxury of bypassing most of the input switching controls.

                      I agree, less can be better, and is usually the case.
                      Bruce

                      Comment

                      • Bob
                        Senior Member
                        • Jul 2000
                        • 802

                        #12
                        NonSense,
                        You pretty much beat me to the punch with your comments. I would have answered sooner but, if anybody who cares would go to wetsand.com you can see that the South Bay is getting 16-24 foot waves today and that means I was in the water most of the day.
                        Anyways, getting back to the subject at hand.

                        Yes, there are a lot of good reasons to use a preamp. But improving the audio signal isn't one of them.
                        You are absolutly right. Each component in the signal path can only degrade the signal, never improve what it receives. So, the audiophile is always on the hunt for what passes on the signal in the most pleasing, least degrading way. Like I said, I can hook my CD player up directly to my amps and eliminate my preamp, if I wanted to. I don't because playing around with a Wadia 861, a Mark Levinson CD player (neither in my system), attenuaters (both commercial and home made, plus my own CD player has never sounded as good as playing through a good preamp. I am only guessing as to why but I would suspect that while the often quoted saying, "The best preamp is no preamp." is cute there is a fundemental problem with it. The inference is that without a preamp the signal is going right from the source to the amp. Not true, the source is still going through a volume control, or attenuater. Only, one that may not be the same quality as those found in a good preamp.
                        However, having said that. A high end CD player with a volume control may sound better by itself rather than played through a preamp that isn't up to the quality of the player.
                        And, may sound better than played through even a high end AVpreamp. I know that both my digital and analog sources played poorly when feed through my Theta Casablanca II with extreme DACs when I had it. It was great for movies but, even a much older ARC LS5 that I used as a preamp was way, way better.

                        Comment

                        • Karma
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 801

                          #13
                          HI Bruce and Bob,
                          Wow, big surf! I'd like to be there.

                          You both make good points. My local Krell dealer has been trying to talk me into a KAV preamp insisting that it would improve my straight through connection. Although he can't articulate the technical aspects as well as you two have, he is making the same point.

                          I suppose I should give his preamp a try. Right now my Sigma II DAC is driving my power amp through a passive preamp (meaning switches and a high quality ALP pot). It works well but I have not done an A/B. Passive preamps have always had the problem of high and variable output impedance due to the in line pot. This can pose problems if there is significant cable capacitance. My cables are the lowest I have ever measured (I measured many when I was designing cables) so I doubt this will be a problem.

                          However, the Sigma DAC has a 12AX7 tube for its output stage. I do not have a spec sheet but typically the output impedance from a tube buffer is 10K or so. Even with my very low capacitance cables, there may be R/C effects to deal with especially when coupled with the passive pre.

                          I tease my dealer by saying that the Krell will only give me what I like but not what is real. He doesn't laugh. But he knows me well. His strategy is to just get the Krell in the door then everything else will take care of itself. The pity is he is probably right. This is an expensive disease.

                          Sparky

                          Edited to add: Opps, I just found a review of the Sigma. The output impedance is stated to be 2K. Well, that helps a little.
                          Last edited by Karma; 21 December 2005, 21:05 Wednesday.

                          Comment

                          • Bob
                            Senior Member
                            • Jul 2000
                            • 802

                            #14
                            I don't know what I would do in your situation. If your only source component is a CD player it must be a tough decesion to add a preamp to it. It becomes a expensive proposition in order to get that little bit more out of your player. If you have a tuner or TT also it is easier to make that leap.

                            Surf wise, all the cliffs at Palos Verdes are lined with tourists and photographers. The cove is closed out, Lunada Bay is four times overhead and the Manhattan Peir almost got shut down today when it looked like the surf was going to go up over it. I got worked big time at the breakwall, truely thought I was never going to get back to the surface before drowning.

                            Comment

                            • locomk
                              Member
                              • Dec 2005
                              • 91

                              #15
                              also, what i originally wanted to know in posting this thread, is will my musichall mavrick sound better connected directly to the amp versus connected to my yamaha integrated receiver. i havn't decided on a good pre yet so i'm currently using my yamaha 3300 as a pre/pro for both two channel and HT. even though detail of the sound might be compromised changing the levels on the cd player, it will probably sound better than using the yamaha as a preamp?
                              Last edited by locomk; 22 December 2005, 03:32 Thursday. Reason: more detail

                              Comment

                              • alebonau
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Oct 2005
                                • 992

                                #16
                                In demoing a few pre's in my system, Ive sure come to appreciate the value/difference a good pre can make.

                                i've found a pre to contribute to soundstage and detail/clarity mostly. I found different brands can influence the sound. eg primare pre30 which is a gorgeous pre giving a darker more laid back sound to say the musical fidelity a5 pre which is more upbeat.

                                Best thing you can do is trial a few different pre's in your system as I did to gauge the difference it will make in your system.
                                "Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."

                                Comment

                                • NonSense
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2003
                                  • 138

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by locomk
                                  also, what i originally wanted to know in posting this thread, is will my musichall mavrick sound better connected directly to the amp versus connected to my yamaha integrated receiver. i havn't decided on a good pre yet so i'm currently using my yamaha 3300 as a pre/pro for both two channel and HT. even though detail of the sound might be compromised changing the levels on the cd player, it will probably sound better than using the yamaha as a preamp?

                                  You should be telling us which worked best. We have given you the green light that there is no technical problems with a connection of this sort, along with some of the pros and cons. There is no way for anyone to predict the results without a head to head test in your system. There are too many factors specific to your system, including your ears. (ie: what you consider good performance) If you cannot hear a difference, then use the most convenient method of connection.

                                  Let us know your results.
                                  Bruce

                                  Comment

                                  • locomk
                                    Member
                                    • Dec 2005
                                    • 91

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by NonSense
                                    You should be telling us which worked best. We have given you the green light that there is no technical problems with a connection of this sort, along with some of the pros and cons. There is no way for anyone to predict the results without a head to head test in your system. There are too many factors specific to your system, including your ears. (ie: what you consider good performance) If you cannot hear a difference, then use the most convenient method of connection.

                                    Let us know your results.
                                    Today i did it. i hooked up my maverick directly to my parasound A21 (2x250) amp. as i mentioned in the original post the maverick can change output from 0-96 at 1 step increments. i listenend to many red book cd's and a few 2 channel sacd's.

                                    listening to redbook cd's, the level had to be set at 30 to get even a little volume and 45-50 was good for a decent volume. when listening to Sacd, the volume was good when setting the output level to 35 or higher.

                                    what i didn't like about connecting the cd player directly to the amp was the amount of hiss i was hearing. the hiss was audible at almost all volumes, even when the player was stopped or paused.

                                    what i liked was the diffrerence of the tone and presence. there was less compression and instruments sounded more defined. After listening to lots of loud rock music i wanted to test the difference in vocals. I listened to "norah jones, come away with me" on sacd. the presence of her voice was much clearer but also came with more hiss.

                                    i'll do some more critical listening with the gain turned slightly down on my amp.

                                    if Anybody else knows a way of getting rid of hiss, i'd love to hear it

                                    Comment

                                    • Race Car Driver
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2005
                                      • 1537

                                      #19
                                      I read this thread and got curious, so I hooked up my old Denon DCD-1530 directly to my Aragon amp, its alot "brighter" and in your face, although I lost alot of the bottom end i had added with the TGII. But im sure theres room for inprovement in my room, right now its pretty bare and it needs some treatment.

                                      The vol control on the CD player is at bout 40% and its quite loud.
                                      B&W

                                      Comment

                                      • Karma
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2005
                                        • 801

                                        #20
                                        HI Driver,
                                        Originally posted by Race Car Driver
                                        I read this thread and got curious, so I hooked up my old Denon DCD-1530 directly to my Aragon amp, its alot "brighter" and in your face, although I lost alot of the bottom end i had added with the TGII. But im sure theres room for inprovement in my room, right now its pretty bare and it needs some treatment.

                                        The vol control on the CD player is at bout 40% and its quite loud.
                                        Your results are interesting and surprising. Throughout this thread folks were talking about possible differences when going with direct hookups but no one ever really said how big the differences were. In my case the SQ differences were very small. True, volume differences could be substantial but they are of no consequence because they can be adjusted out. I assumed that others were also talking about small changes; the kind you hear only when you are doing critical listening.

                                        But you are reporting BIG differences. If your preamp is working properly, it's very hard to explain. If you think about it, how would you explain it? There is a real possibility there are problems with your cables or the preamp. Or possibly a serious mismatch between your pre and power amp or the player and pre.

                                        I think you ought to try to isolate where the differences are happening. You may find a problem that needs to be fixed. I doubt very much that what you are hearing is due to direct hookup effects only. If it is, I would replace your player. Certainly, your Aragon amp is capable but I don't know which pre you are using.

                                        Good luck. Report back your findiings.

                                        Sparky
                                        Last edited by Karma; 23 December 2005, 01:51 Friday.

                                        Comment

                                        • NewBuyer
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Feb 2005
                                          • 122

                                          #21
                                          The single best thing I've ever done to improve the sound quality of my 2-channel system is to eliminate the preamp. My only source currently is my CD-player/upsampler/external-DAC combo.

                                          I bought the Stepped Attenuators from the Endler Audio website [ http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4c5pt/ ]

                                          They attach directly to your poweramp, so you don't have to worry about the usual impedance/capacitance problems of passive preamps and cables.

                                          The improvement was extraordinary. The sound quality (blacker background, detail retrieval, soundstage clarity and dimension, dynamics, everything) was night-and-day better. The $2500 Musical Fidelity A5cr Preamp sounded *bad* when compared to a direct connection using these Stepped Attenuators, and IMO that is really saying something.

                                          Comment

                                          • Karma
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2005
                                            • 801

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by NewBuyer
                                            The single best thing I've ever done to improve the sound quality of my 2-channel system is to eliminate the preamp. My only source currently is my CD-player/upsampler/external-DAC combo.

                                            I bought the Stepped Attenuators from the Endler Audio website [ http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4c5pt/ ]

                                            They attach directly to your poweramp, so you don't have to worry about the usual impedance/capacitance problems of passive preamps and cables.

                                            The improvement was extraordinary. The sound quality (blacker background, detail retrieval, soundstage clarity and dimension, dynamics, everything) was night-and-day better. The $2500 Musical Fidelity A5cr Preamp sounded *bad* when compared to a direct connection using these Stepped Attenuators, and IMO that is really saying something.
                                            HI,
                                            Arggggg!

                                            I'm really glad you are getting good results with your attenuators. But what's a lazy person like me to do? Would I have to get up and service the attenuators every time I want to adjust the volume or balance? Is that the price of perfection?

                                            Sorry, it's not for me. I want to be catered to.

                                            Sparky

                                            Comment

                                            • gostan
                                              Senior Member
                                              • May 2003
                                              • 445

                                              #23
                                              I tried my Cary CD 300-303 direct to a pair of NuForce Ref 9 amps. At first I thought that I had found the holy grail of 2 channel sound, albeit with a little hiss throught the tweeters. But after showing my wife how to connect and disconnect the RCA's, I determined that the sound was just a little more musical when run through my Arcam AVP-700 via bypass. The direct connection was definitely different, much more forward in your face, but over time, the preamp interface simply proved to be a better and easier to use choice. I think that the amp type will have a lot to do with how a cd direct to amp connection sounds. It sure was fun though to have the ability to try this type of connection out!

                                              Stan
                                              Stan

                                              Comment

                                              • NewBuyer
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Feb 2005
                                                • 122

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Karma
                                                ...what's a lazy person like me to do? Would I have to get up and service the attenuators every time I want to adjust the volume or balance?...
                                                My CD-player has digital volume control and a remote, but its volume adjustments are rough (it was apparently not intended for direct-amp connection, instead I believe the CD-player's digital volume control was meant to augment a preamp or integrated amp volume for fine adjustments from the couch with the remote). However with the attenuators each set to about halfway, I can then use the CD-player remote to control the overall volume level very well, from quiet to very loud.

                                                Comment

                                                • Karma
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2005
                                                  • 801

                                                  #25
                                                  HI New,
                                                  OK, I understand. It does sound like a good idea. You have effectively doubled the resolutin of your digital volume control. Cool. Unfortunately you are imposing an additional sound modifying element into the chain. Even simple attenuators have sonic consequences. But it may be worth it. Everything is a compromise, right?

                                                  Sparky

                                                  Comment

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