250 watts Bi-amp VS 400 watts Bi-wire?

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  • Race Car Driver
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 1537

    250 watts Bi-amp VS 400 watts Bi-wire?

    A question thats been lingering....

    Now, say you had a pair of speakers, with bi wire posts.

    Now heres two scenarios.

    1)Take those speakers and hook them up to...
    *Each speaker gets a mono block, bi-wired, rated at 400watts RMS 8 ohms
    (400 watts at 8 ohms SHARED between the lows-mid/high)

    2)Take those same speakers and hook them up to..
    *each speaker gets its own 2 ch amp, bi-amped, rated at 250 watts RMS 8 ohms.
    (250 watts at 8 ohms DEDICATED to each low and mid/high)

    I fully understand parallel and series wiring of speakers and the affect resistance has on amplifier output.(MECP installer 7+ years) But im just now really starting to enjoy home audio, and never have delt with bi wire posts on home speakers. I've never taken the time to measure the resistance of the speakers with my multimeter. (example, my 802s)

    I know one set of posts is the woofers, the other is the mid/high. Is each set 8 ohms? or is the cabinet as a whole 8 ohms. (dont see how that could be unless they are 4 ohms each set series wired)

    I also understand that to fully take advantage of the bi-amp setup you want to remove the crossovers from the cabinets to get the full power of the amps in the freq range for the selected speaker. (something im not interested in doing to my 802s or my pocket book)

    So with that what will be the result to the above scenario, assuming, all speakers, amps and cables etc are equal?

    My "theory" is IF:
    The posts are 4 ohms each, the 250 watts at 8 (key word) ohms stereo amps in a bi-amp setup would yeild better results regarless if the crossovers were removed. (lets say 400 watts at 4 ohms for arguements sake)


    Is there something toooo simple im missing here? Or just thinking about this to hard? :lol: Or maybe its more complex then i thought.

    Discuss.
    B&W
  • Karma
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 801

    #2
    HI Car,
    I don't think I understand what you are getting at so I just want to address two issues you mentioned.

    Impedance is an AC function. To determine impedance one must reference a frequency. A speakers impedance is complex consisting of resistance, inductance and capcitance. An ohm meter is almost useless for determining impedance. Try it and you will see.

    When a speakers biwire capability is used the internal crossover is still used. The shorting strap just connects the crossovers sections internally so a monowire can be used. The crossovers MUST be used. The only way around it is to use an active crossover in front of an amplifier that drives a specific driver. directly. Most speakers are not designed for active crossovers though they can be modified for such.

    Sparky

    Comment

    • Victor
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2002
      • 338

      #3
      I think it is important to realize that bi-wiring (using one power amplifier to drive to drivers through two separate wires) has no effect on the overall electrical characteristics of the system, - and consequently on its sound. The superposition principle can be used to show that regardless of how many wires being used the net result is the same. With this in mind I would not consider doing wiring at all.

      Victor

      Comment

      • Race Car Driver
        Super Senior Member
        • Mar 2005
        • 1537

        #4
        I knew someone would bring up the freq/impidence comment. It always happens!
        I was trying to be as general/simple as poss.

        Most home speakers, rated at 8 ohms correct? Why give that rating if its freq dependent.

        I also know that Bi-wiring doesnt really have an effect on the speakers.. or does it! Hehe, there will ALWAYS be a debate on that. Lets leave it at that, i understand who states what and for what reasons.

        My question is this.
        Anyone have an OPINION on what the outcome would be.

        Two.. 400 watt mono block amps wired however you would like to my N802s.

        OR

        Two 250 watt 2 ch amps wired bi-amped (of course, 2 amps 4 channels) to N802s.
        No active crossover, no rewiring of my speakers, no desire to venture into that territory. One amp, providing 250 watts to the bass drivers and another 250 watts to the mid/high. (are you saying that is not possible because the way its wired inside with the cabinet through the crossover?)

        I think my biggest problem, is I dont fully understand how the cabinets are wired.
        B&W

        Comment

        • Glen B
          Super Senior Member
          • Jul 2004
          • 1106

          #5
          Originally posted by Race Car Driver
          Most home speakers, rated at 8 ohms correct? Why give that rating if its freq dependent.
          Your question actually could also have been, why give any speaker an impedance rating if its frequency dependent ? Because the manufacturer must quote SOME kind of nominal rating so that we can be guided in selecting suitable amplification.

          Although the impedance of all speakers will vary with frequency, there will be an average figure for much of the audible frequency range as I'm sure you know. If the speaker's average is close to 8 ohms, the speaker manufacturer is likely to rate it as such. If the speaker tests near 4 ohms or lower over most of the audible frequency range, then hopefully it gets a 4 ohm nominal rating.


          Comment

          • Race Car Driver
            Super Senior Member
            • Mar 2005
            • 1537

            #6
            Yes, i understand why they do it, guess i was making a statement.

            How about this..
            Is it possible to wire a single 2-channel amp, to a Bi-wired speaker? (one channel per post)

            I am trying to understand how the cabinet is wired internally, and what options their are I guess.
            This is my biggest hang up, i dont understand how they are wired internally.
            Guess its time to search around for some diagrams.

            Thanks again.
            Chris
            B&W

            Comment

            • Pieter
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2005
              • 219

              #7
              Originally posted by Race Car Driver
              Is it possible to wire a single 2-channel amp, to a Bi-wired speaker? (one channel per post)
              Yes, you run a Y-splitter from your pre-amp's right channel output with a cable to each channel input on your power amp. One channel then supplies power to your, say right speaker lows and the other power to your right speaker mid/highs. Repeat for your left speaker. Vertical passive bi-amping if your speaker's internal crossover remains in path.

              My gut feel would be to ditch bi-wiring or bi-amping in preference to hitting those 802s with the 400W you're contemplating, especially if you listen loud.

              Not that I'm an anti-proponent of the other options, just that I think you have to concentrate to hear the changes at times. And if you have to work at hearing them, then...

              One caveat - if the amp your contemplating needs to be bridged to give you 400W into a single channel, then I'd reconsider, as the added distortion due to bridging may renigate your efforts.

              Do you already have the amps? If so, then why not give the various options a try; quite fun to play around like that over a weekend.

              Comment

              • Race Car Driver
                Super Senior Member
                • Mar 2005
                • 1537

                #8
                Originally posted by Pieter
                Yes, you run a Y-splitter from your pre-amp's right channel output with a cable to each channel input on your power amp. One channel then supplies power to your, say right speaker lows and the other power to your right speaker mid/highs. Repeat for your left speaker. Vertical passive bi-amping if your speaker's internal crossover remains in path.
                ....

                Do you already have the amps? If so, then why not give the various options a try; quite fun to play around like that over a weekend.
                Yes, the term "Vertical passive bi-amping" is what I was looking for. That is what my thought was.. thanks for putting it into words for me.
                I wasnt sure if that was possible, but now I have a term to go with it.

                No I dont have the amps, hell if I did, they would already be swapped and I more then likely wouldnt be asking. I wouldnt bridge the amp to get 400 watts, for the exact reason you mentioned above. I just took two numbers and threw them out there to see what people would think.

                Thanks for the comment.
                B&W

                Comment

                • aud19
                  Twin Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2003
                  • 16706

                  #9
                  I'd go with the monoblock's myself. Simple enough answer for ya

                  :lol:
                  Jason

                  Comment

                  • whoaru99
                    Senior Member
                    • Jul 2004
                    • 638

                    #10
                    IMO, you'd be better off with one 400w amp per speaker than bi-amped at 250 watts x 2. With 400 watts, there is more power available for the lows where it's most needed. FWIW, I'd skip the bi-wire part too...
                    There are some things which are impossible to know, but it is impossible to know which things these are. :scratchhead:

                    ----JAFFE'S PRECEPT

                    Comment

                    • Sim reality
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2005
                      • 173

                      #11
                      I agreed with whoaru.

                      The lower frequecies is actually what sucks up most of the power so if you had 2x250 watt your lower frequecies are actually going to start to clip at 250 Watt as opposed to 400 watts with the mono-blocks.

                      Also the advantage of bi-wiring over single wire (over the fact that there is lower resistance from having a lower resistant because of the 2 wires) can be eliminated by going to the next heaver gauge wire (mind you if, you are already running 12 gauge wire, that is pretty much as big a wire you are going to get into your wire terminators so if you bi-wire 12 gauge you can't really beat that).

                      Comment

                      • Lex
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Apr 2001
                        • 27461

                        #12
                        So, is this like a 400 pound gorilla vs 2 200 pound arangatangs?

                        Bi-amping done right is a lot more work than just bi-wiring with more power. In order to effectively bi-amp, you'll need to disable the speaker's crossover, and use an external crossover. This is a lot of work, and requires a serious amount of dedication to the cause-

                        It's a lot more than most of us are willing to do.

                        vertical passive bi-amping
                        sounds like a particular by-pass operation. I think I'll pass. lol.

                        Doug
                        Doug
                        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                        Comment

                        • Race Car Driver
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Mar 2005
                          • 1537

                          #13
                          Monos it is
                          B&W

                          Comment

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