Optical vs Coax

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  • orangebull
    Junior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 16

    Optical vs Coax

    Is optical or coax suspose to be better for digital audio connections?

    I am connecting a Denon 2900 CD/DVD player and a dish network receiver to my 1098 via the digital inputs.

    I also use the multi-inpu/output from the Denon.

    thanks, OB
  • DrJRapp
    Super Senior Member
    • Apr 2003
    • 1204

    #2
    Originally posted by orangebull
    Is optical or coax suspose to be better for digital audio connections?

    I am connecting a Denon 2900 CD/DVD player and a dish network receiver to my 1098 via the digital inputs.

    I also use the multi-inpu/output from the Denon.

    thanks, OB
    Coax....That's how I have mine connected. Some people will tell you that one sounds better than the other, and vice vesa. I think it's higly dependent on the two individual pieces of gear. I do think that coax is more durable in the long run, however.
    Jerry Rappaport

    Comment

    • Lex
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Apr 2001
      • 27461

      #3
      This post does not belong in club Rotel as I see nothing Rotel related, so it's moved to audio where you will get more responses.
      Doug
      "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

      Comment

      • aud19
        Twin Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2003
        • 16706

        #4
        They both have the caacity to be equally good IMO. However I feel you can usually get a better quality coax for the same money, or less, than an optical cable. Also as Jerry mentioned, opticals can be less durable.
        Jason

        Comment

        • PewterTA
          Moderator
          • Nov 2004
          • 2901

          #5
          I was one that did not believe there was any difference. And all in all, there isn't. I had my DVD player hooked up with a coxial and optical cable and would switch back and forth all the time, never heard any difference. Both cables were of the same brand, so quality should be pretty similar.

          The one thing that has changed my thinking is I just recently (earlier this week) bought the solid silver digital coax from Cat Cables (ask doug about it --aka Lex), and I really have to say, as much as I don't want to believe it, there is a definite difference in the cable. I hooked the Cat cable up and left the optical in for testing to see if I could notice any difference. It's a very noticeable difference. The highs are much clearer and the voices to people are a little bit thinner and more "realistic" sounding. It really seemed to make my center channel of my B&W 600 series speakers loose it's "boxiness" that it had and sound like a whole different speaker. It really has made the speakers seem "lighter" (for lack of a better word) and more open than it was watching any other movies... I also think the surrounds give a little more presence to them... Definitely cool considering it's a digital cable, not analog. I'm still trying to figure it all out. My only guess is there's less work to be done correcting the bit stream and the solid silver transfers much better. Only thing I can think of.

          I did have to go back and calibrate everything again, my center was up 2db higher and I had to turn that down, as well as I had to do the same for my right and rear right surround speakers... So there's can be a difference all depending on what kind of cable you get!

          Good job on the SS Digital Coax Cat Cables Doug!!!
          Digital Audio makes me Happy.
          -Dan

          Comment

          • Markmm
            Junior Member
            • Nov 2005
            • 29

            #6
            Why would there be any difference? If it's digital it's just sending 1's and 0's.

            Optical 1011011 sounds the same as Coax 1011011 and unless the cable is broken and dropping bits, the cable isn't going to make any difference. It's all going to the same DAC's in pre-amp.

            Comment

            • jim777
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2005
              • 831

              #7
              Personnally, I would go for coax because optical transmitters/sensors I worked with in the pass didn't have the same rise/fall time. That would introduce jitter... but it may not be the case with Toslink (never looked at the standard in detail).

              The advantage of fiber optics is that you avoid a ground connection. A fiber can easily remove a ground loop that otherwise would have caused hum

              But I still prefer coax. It's a real direct no-brainer electrical/mechanical connection.

              Comment

              • aud19
                Twin Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2003
                • 16706

                #8
                Originally posted by Markmm
                Why would there be any difference? If it's digital it's just sending 1's and 0's.

                Optical 1011011 sounds the same as Coax 1011011 and unless the cable is broken and dropping bits, the cable isn't going to make any difference. It's all going to the same DAC's in pre-amp.
                How cleanly the cable and inputs/outputs send/receive those 1's and 0's does make a difference though
                Jason

                Comment

                • PewterTA
                  Moderator
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 2901

                  #9
                  Aud19 hit it on the head, that's the ONLY thing I can think of.

                  I've had 10 people over and blindly switched the cable, didn't tell them which was was in when they started listening nor which one I switched it to. Yet every time I used the SS Digi-Cat Cable, everyone picked out the differences and liked the sound better. Said it made my speakers "disappear" compared to the other two cables I was using, sound more neutral and had clearer high/lows... It's got me stumped how there could be that much "loss" of the digital signal that the receiver is having to make corrections on it. ?!?!?!?!?!?!??

                  Only thing that makes me wonder too, is that I am not using my silvercats from my processor to the amp, so I wonder if that would make a difference as well, but since I don't have a set of 7 silvercats I can't try it (yet).

                  Stumped!
                  Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                  -Dan

                  Comment

                  • Markmm
                    Junior Member
                    • Nov 2005
                    • 29

                    #10
                    How do you mean cleanly? It's either 1 or 0 no 1.5,0.5, 1.3, etc. The light either flashes or it doesn't, or the voltage is + or it's -. ___---___--___-_.

                    Comment

                    • wildfire99
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2005
                      • 257

                      #11
                      Many moons ago I did an A/B test and surprisingly found coax to be slightly better sounding. I'm sure it was listener bias, but fortunately for me, coax is orders of magnitude easier to deal with. I can grab any old cable and hook up two pieces of equipment. I do keep two toslink cables around for 'difficult' moments, but it doesn't matter to me either way how it's hooked up.
                      - Patrick
                      "But it's more fun when it doesn't make sense!"

                      Comment

                      • aud19
                        Twin Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2003
                        • 16706

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Markmm
                        How do you mean cleanly? It's either 1 or 0 no 1.5,0.5, 1.3, etc. The light either flashes or it doesn't, or the voltage is + or it's -. ___---___--___-_.
                        Well you're forgetting thinks things like jitter, error correction RF interference (coax) etc... Try googling some info on the two digital formats, it's not as cut and dry as you might think
                        Jason

                        Comment

                        • Andrew M Ward
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2005
                          • 717

                          #13
                          Originally posted by aud19
                          Well you're forgetting thinks things like jitter, error correction RF interference (coax) etc... Try googling some info on the two digital formats, it's not as cut and dry as you might think
                          On lower-end gear it's not so cut and dry, I agree.

                          However! The cable is not "introducing jitter" be it coax or Toslink ~ but how the signal is handled after it is delivered to the preamplifier is critical. Some lower end gear is better equiped to manage the signal electrically and not so optically. That is where you are likely hearing your difference.

                          The cable itself is simply passing either a 1 or a 0 ... there is perhaps no other example in Audio where there is such a cut-and-dry application of a "wire"

                          That said, keep in mind, the digital signal path in both the DVD player and preamplifier is likely managed entirely in the electrical domain, only at the optical pick-up ATAPI interface is it "light" after that the audio portion is entirely an electrical PCM signal. So the process of "Optical to Electrical back to Optical back to Electrical" (which is what will happen if you use Toslink) has larger potential for signal degadation if all parts are not of the highest order and the audio board lacks a seperate clock. Most DVD plyers use the 37Megahertz video clock to clock audio (not ideal)

                          I could go on (but I won't)

                          Coax has it's advantages in Mid-fi gear and it's not because of the "wire" it'self... But I don't sell wire, so don't ask me...:W

                          Comment

                          • chrispy35
                            Senior Member
                            • Feb 2004
                            • 198

                            #14
                            Where do you get that cables don't introduce jitter? Unless cable loss vs. frequency is completely flat and the link termination is perfect, the cable will add jitter. I've used cables of various length to add jitter on serial data links at work (admittedly at much higher rates than SPDIF). I think saying that no jitter is added is a little too strong a generalization.

                            Comment

                            • Andrew M Ward
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2005
                              • 717

                              #15
                              Originally posted by chrispy35
                              Where do you get that cables don't introduce jitter? Unless cable loss vs. frequency is completely flat and the link termination is perfect, the cable will add jitter. I've used cables of various length to add jitter on serial data links at work (admittedly at much higher rates than SPDIF). I think saying that no jitter is added is a little too strong a generalization.
                              Interesting...
                              In my fiber-optic days we used to have miles of cable on a spool to add jitter and loss? Three miles to be exact and it was driven by 1.5 volts... and the jitter was vitually a zero correction from clock to clock...

                              How long a cable do you think people are using?

                              Just curious...

                              Comment

                              • NonSense
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2003
                                • 138

                                #16
                                I guess the question is, how does Toslink compare to true glass fiber with AT&T/Bell Labs termination, and driven by an industrial laser diode modulator.

                                I was always under the impression that Toslink, in most applications, was just a flexible plastic light pipe driven by an LED. (Plastic Fiber)

                                I would suggest that lower grade TX/RX electronics used to convert the electrical signal to and from light, along with the medium and termination all effect the performance to a certain degree.

                                On the better digital audio systems, the most noticeable difference you find is the choice of a better (glass fiber) optical termination system. (Usually along with an AES/EBU and true 75 Ohm BNC S/PDIF)

                                Interestingly enough, on some of these better digital systems, you will also find a separate clock signal available from the source. By phase locking to the souce clock, they suggest that you can reduce the additional jitter introduced by the digital connection caused by extracting the timing information from the data signal. Are they trying to compensate for jitter introduced by the interconnect or are they trying to reduce the jitter created by the use of two reference clocks? (one in the source and one in the target) Maybe both?
                                Bruce

                                Comment

                                • chrispy35
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Feb 2004
                                  • 198

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Andrew M Ward
                                  Interesting...
                                  In my fiber-optic days we used to have miles of cable on a spool to add jitter and loss? Three miles to be exact and it was driven by 1.5 volts... and the jitter was vitually a zero correction from clock to clock...

                                  How long a cable do you think people are using?

                                  Just curious...
                                  Sorry, I forgot to mention in my comment that we were using co-axial cable.

                                  Comment

                                  • Kevin P
                                    Member
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 10809

                                    #18
                                    The differences are likely due to the quality (or lack thereof) of conversion components in the gear being connected. In most consumer gear, coaxial sounds better than optical, since it's a straight electrical connection. The optics in a Toslink jack are a cheap implementation: a 15 cent LED on the transmit end and a 15 cent photodiode/transisitor on the other end. Buffer/comparator circuits are likely on the cheap side as well. Plus plastic "fiber" cables are far from ideal as well. The result: rise and fall times are off from the original signal generated by the source, causing the timing to get thrown off. Any light loss in the cable could cause the transitions from zero to one or one to zero to shift in time as well. This leads to jitter.

                                    Coax has some of the same issues, but being electrical, there tends to be less loss, and less introduction of jitter. Doug's silver coax has a higher conductivity than normal copper, resulting in a better frequency response, and better rise/fall times, resulting in less loss and jitter (I'm sure our Cable Guy can better explain the virtues of silver wire better than I can). For the same reason silver interconnects bring out more detail in the analog domain, a silver coax brings out more "detail" in the bitstream, detail being less distortion to the waveform, which ideally are discrete 1 and 0 pulses. Loss causes the pulses to get rounded off, which can cause the comparator on the receiving end to switch at the "wrong" time, leading to jitter.

                                    In the case of fiber optics such as used by telephone companies, this is high grade glass fiber and high-end laser transceivers which have a much higher bandwidth than Toslink. Also, the protocols used likely make jitter a non-issue.

                                    Comment

                                    • PewterTA
                                      Moderator
                                      • Nov 2004
                                      • 2901

                                      #19
                                      So how does that change/effect when you use an equal optical and coaxial digital connection from one source to another...then change out the coaxial and notice a difference such as I have.

                                      Is that saying that both the optical and coaxial from one company is vastly inferior to another company's? The coaxial was copper (pretty decent cable from a respected cable manufacturer) as well as was the glass optical cable. Both gave an amazing clearity (I felt). When I changed the coaxial to the solid silver cat cable though... the sound changed and from all aspects I and my friends can tell, is for the better.

                                      So is the cable that much better at transmitting the 1s and 0s? So to say, the optical connection is the weakest link and using the copper interconnect made the coaxial connection equal to the optical, when the Solid Silver interconnect showed the vast superiority (or quality) it can produce? Does that make any sense.

                                      The unit is a Denon DVD-2910 to the Rotel RSP-1098....?!!? I'm just trying to figure out where the difference really came in.
                                      Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                      -Dan

                                      Comment

                                      • audioqueso
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2004
                                        • 1930

                                        #20
                                        I can't believe this thread was started on this forum.
                                        I prefer coax, but it's not because of sound. It's because optical has one extra step in it's processing, converting the digital signal to light and then back. That's my only reason why I choose coax.

                                        But as far as the glass fiber vs plastic fiber. I just ordered some toslink heads and I'm going to make a cable using commercial fiber to see if you can hear a difference in short distance.
                                        B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                                        Comment

                                        • Andrew M Ward
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Apr 2005
                                          • 717

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by audioqueso
                                          I can't believe this thread was started on this forum.
                                          I prefer coax, but it's not because of sound. It's because optical has one extra step in it's processing, converting the digital signal to light and then back. That's my only reason why I choose coax.

                                          But as far as the glass fiber vs plastic fiber. I just ordered some toslink heads and I'm going to make a cable using commercial fiber to see if you can hear a difference in short distance.
                                          Well I would guess you're going to need to make a really really (really) long cable! At the one meter or less length I cannot even image...

                                          I do agree with you, the argument should not be about which cable is better, it should be which process is better (Optical or electrical) in regards to mid-fi electrocnics capabilities.

                                          Just my opinion...

                                          Comment

                                          • audioqueso
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2004
                                            • 1930

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Andrew M Ward
                                            Well I would guess you're going to need to make a really really (really) long cable! At the one meter or less length I cannot even image...
                                            Why?
                                            B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                                            Comment

                                            • Andrew M Ward
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Apr 2005
                                              • 717

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by audioqueso
                                              Why?

                                              To hear the difference between glass one's and zero's & plastic one's and zero's you're going to need about 3 miles of cable (each) if you're trying to hear cable induced jitter...

                                              Comment

                                              • Markmm
                                                Junior Member
                                                • Nov 2005
                                                • 29

                                                #24
                                                Maybe since glass is clearer it would have a clearer sound. LOL.. :rofl:

                                                Comment

                                                • Sim reality
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Aug 2005
                                                  • 173

                                                  #25
                                                  You guys forget that the bulk of the tramission errors/interference (over 90%) are not in the "cable" portion of the coaxle or toslink cable but where the cable terminates.

                                                  This explains why better cables sound better because how well the terminations are built/designed makes the huge difference in the losses/errors associated with the cable.

                                                  Telecommunications grade fiber interfaces use actual lasers and glass to reduce the transmission losses in the length of the cable and minimize the refraction in the changes in the media (IE: glass-air-glass interface at the ends of the cables) as opposed to the LEDs and clear plastic found in mid-HT applications.

                                                  That said, I think the toslink weakness is in the detector side of media (IE: where is goes into the pre/pro). The detector does not have a lot of light to work with so it's probably going to be where errors are introduced.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • aud19
                                                    Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                                    • Aug 2003
                                                    • 16706

                                                    #26
                                                    All I know is there was a slight audible difference between my original "cheap" plastic optical and the higher quality glass cable I got from Doug. Perhaps it was solely the better connectors as Sim eluded to...?
                                                    Jason

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Andrew M Ward
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Apr 2005
                                                      • 717

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Sim reality

                                                      That said, I think the toslink weakness is in the detector side of media (IE: where is goes into the pre/pro). The detector does not have a lot of light to work with so it's probably going to be where errors are introduced.
                                                      Agreed!
                                                      however I do really enjoy the harassment.

                                                      I would still argue (connectors glass or not) worry about transmission loss on a one meter run is kind of silly...

                                                      remember: 1.5 volts can push light (Not Light Amplified IE:Not Laser) through 3 miles of fiber-optic cable and out the other end with virtually no loss... I think we're okay at the 1 meter length with home audio gear... after all,one meter is about 5 thousand times shorter than 3 miles...

                                                      Just an observation

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Snap
                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                        • Feb 2005
                                                        • 1295

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by NonSense
                                                        I guess the question is, how does Toslink compare to true glass fiber with AT&T/Bell Labs termination, and driven by an industrial laser diode modulator.
                                                        :wtf:

                                                        Audio is right....I can not believe that this is even here? :nonod:

                                                        Who ever talked about the conections being a huge factor in cables is right.


                                                        If you are talking apples and apples it is a matter of P.O. It is unfair to compair some CAT cables to a 40 buck Toslink cable. Darn right Lex's cables are going to smoke the doors off the Toslink. And they should for tons of reasons. Quaility being one of many.

                                                        I use...as mentioned by some other poster....Coax, due to the durability of the interconnect. I am always moving stuff in and out of the rack. Plus I have a dog and a 2.5 year old that some times finds their way to the cables.

                                                        But that is my .02 cents on the matter.
                                                        The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • aud19
                                                          Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                                          • Aug 2003
                                                          • 16706

                                                          #29
                                                          Regarding the Cat cable I also forgot to mention the older, lower quality cable also occasionaly gave me sync problems with my 1066 where sometimes it wouldn't pick up the DD/DTS setting at the beginning of movies or sometimes after pausing, leaving me with no audio and forcing me to cycle power to the player. Hasn't happened once with the new cable :T Now explain that if it's all the same over any cable with just 1's and 0's
                                                          Jason

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Sim reality
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Aug 2005
                                                            • 173

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Andrew M Ward
                                                            I would still argue (connectors glass or not) worry about transmission loss on a one meter run is kind of silly...

                                                            remember: 1.5 volts can push light (Not Light Amplified IE:Not Laser) through 3 miles of fiber-optic cable and out the other end with virtually no loss... I think we're okay at the 1 meter length with home audio gear... after all,one meter is about 5 thousand times shorter than 3 miles...

                                                            Just an observation
                                                            Personally I have my doubt about plastic optical... Too many changes in refractive index from "LED-air-polycarbonate-(whatever the cable is made of)-polycarbonate-air-detector".

                                                            Glass just goes LED-Air-Glass-Air-Detector... Each time you change refractive indexes you just add more noise to the signal (and don't give me the BS about 1's and 0's... My wireless connection slows down every time I turn on the microwave).

                                                            Whether you could tell is a different story...

                                                            Comment

                                                            • audioqueso
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Nov 2004
                                                              • 1930

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Andrew M Ward
                                                              To hear the difference between glass one's and zero's & plastic one's and zero's you're going to need about 3 miles of cable (each) if you're trying to hear cable induced jitter...
                                                              No, no. That's why I said "...if you can hear a difference in short distance..."
                                                              I can preach to you all day about the differences in long run between the two, the actual numbers, blah, blah, blah. But what I'd like to know is if you can HEAR a difference when we're talking about a length like 3 feet.

                                                              Anways, you guys are taking it wayyy too far. I just want to run a little test and see if you can hear a difference between the two. It's that simple.
                                                              B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Jack Keck
                                                                Member
                                                                • Jan 2005
                                                                • 57

                                                                #32
                                                                I understand that thi swill add nothing of substance to this discussion, but the AM guy on the radio said that this is the anniversary of the day that they applied for the patent on caax cable. I didn't have a pen handy and could not have remembered those guys' names to save my live, but they applied for the patent in December 8, 1931.

                                                                So now we can remember this date as something other than the day John Lennon was killed.
                                                                Jack

                                                                "I walked in a lot of place that I never shoulda been, but I know that the Messiah, He will come again."

                                                                Roy Buchanan

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Blazar
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Feb 2004
                                                                  • 127

                                                                  #33
                                                                  ok:

                                                                  coaxial - better for long cable runs. increased potential for "interference" but basically a non-issue for most. Another disadvantage: it electrically couples the source and the receiver/converter which increases risk of interference.

                                                                  optical - basically the opposite of the above.

                                                                  In the end, testing has shown very little differences in jitter caused by the cables themselves. Both have minimal jitter introduction in short runs.

                                                                  IN the end... anyone concerned about jitter is dealing with a HIGH end D/A converter and those D/A converters ie the Benchmark DAC-1 and others have GREAT reclocking which eliminates jitter to that which is scientifically possible AND the benchmark site shows that the DAC-1 will eliminate jitter that is PURPOSEFULLY introduced as well.

                                                                  I personally use optical for HTPC output to the receiver because it decouples the electrical noise of the HTPC from the receiver completely. It also allows me to plug the receiver/AMP into a different outlet (dedicated line) without the risk of ground loops.

                                                                  Basically my htpc and projector are connected to a common ground to prevent ground loops and my receiver is connected to a separate outlet to eliminate acoustically relevant ground loops. The optical cable keeps everything decoupled electrically so I don't have to deal with any sonic issues.
                                                                  Blazar!
                                                                  (HTPC/Panasonic SA-XR55/B&W 802D/HTM-1/SCMS)

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Blazar
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Feb 2004
                                                                    • 127

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Anyone who can hear differences ... the only way that is possible if there is something fundamentally different between the coax and optical circuitry in their overall jitter introduction....

                                                                    and even then, you shouldn't even be discussing this unless you have an amazing DAC. Or conversely maybe it only matters to those without an amazing dac since a good dac can take care of jitter in reclocking.
                                                                    Blazar!
                                                                    (HTPC/Panasonic SA-XR55/B&W 802D/HTM-1/SCMS)

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • StefanColson
                                                                      Junior Member
                                                                      • Jun 2005
                                                                      • 28

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Most guys just don't get it. Digital isn't like analog. As the signal degrades, the audio quality DOES NOT. Digital basically works until things get so bad that it stops working all together. The only thing that you might notice as the signal degrades or as jitter is introduced is a collapsing of the sound stage.

                                                                      Again, until the signal gets so bad that the device can't interpret it, digital signals won't lose any sound quality. Go buy a scope, purposefully degrade the signal, and listen to what you hear. It won't really change until it drops out completely.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • audioqueso
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                                        • 1930

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by StefanColson
                                                                        Most guys just don't get it. Digital isn't like analog. As the signal degrades, the audio quality DOES NOT. Digital basically works until things get so bad that it stops working all together. The only thing that you might notice as the signal degrades or as jitter is introduced is a collapsing of the sound stage.
                                                                        Nicely put, and let's just leave it at that. I always hate this coax vs optical threads I see in other forums. They go on forever and ever and people seem to swear they know so much about it when they can't even explain how a speaker works. Like I said, the only reason I pick coax is for the one less step of processing it has compared to optical.

                                                                        And Blazer, just for future reference, it's the other way around. Fiber is used for long runs, coax is used for short runs.

                                                                        FYI, still waiting for my toslink connectors to perform my little test.
                                                                        B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • NewBuyer
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Feb 2005
                                                                          • 122

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by StefanColson
                                                                          ...The only thing that you might notice as the signal degrades or as jitter is introduced is a collapsing of the sound stage...
                                                                          Interesting. Why would a collapsing of the sound stage result?

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • audioqueso
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Nov 2004
                                                                            • 1930

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Because jitter is a timing error, and soundstage is produce by precise timing.
                                                                            B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Snap
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Feb 2005
                                                                              • 1295

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Audio and Stefan you guys are right on. :agree:
                                                                              The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • NewBuyer
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Feb 2005
                                                                                • 122

                                                                                #40
                                                                                So assuming you still hear music from your DAC (i.e. "it hasn't stopped working altogether"), the only possible audible result that jitter problems could produce is a lack of soundstage integrity. That's all there is to jitter? It's just that I had never heard (or read) that explanation before. Interesting...

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • mjb
                                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                                  • 1483

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  IMO, there is no audiable difference between the two mediums. Any difference (you might think) you hear will be down to slightly different opamp/gains in the in/output circuits. Fiber has the advantage of signal-ground isolation between equipment. To worry about jitter on a 44/96Khz signal through a 12 inch fiber is just plain silly.
                                                                                  - Mike

                                                                                  Main System:
                                                                                  B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                                                                  Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • audioqueso
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                                                    • 1930

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    NewBuyer, you're going way too deep on this. Is the only possible audible result that jitter problems could produce is a lack of soundstage integrity??? No, but the most audible difference will be the soundstage since the actual music comes in as data bits. Simply put, sending a pure digital pure signal of 1s and 0s through fiber/coax will arrive at the other end as the same 1s and 0s. Unless the path is cut or damaged, the 1s and 0s will not change. What will change is how it arrives. Timing will never change the bit order, but can change when or how it gets there. Bit error will change the music (gaps, bleeps, etc), but if you have bit error on fiber, you have a bad cable(and/or dirty for fiber). PM me if you want the full out explaination. However Mike is right to say that to worry about jitter on 12 inches of fiber is just plain silly.
                                                                                    B&W 804S/Velodyne SPL-1000R/Anthem MRX720

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Snap
                                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                                      • Feb 2005
                                                                                      • 1295

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      NewBuyer: Sound Stage problems is not the only thing that you can get from digital signal problems. To try an explain a little more about digital signals I will list a few examples in some different areas.

                                                                                      Example:

                                                                                      1. Ever watch HD from your cable company and all of a sudden it skips? Or worse there are some distorted squares in certian parts of the screen? That is an example of Digital Video Jitter. It happens through Time Warner Cable all the time with their digital TV stuff. Some times you might see it on Sat as well, as their whole feed is digital.

                                                                                      2. Another thing you have to realize is that Digital signal does not have the "head Room" like older analog stuff. For example your old tape deck. It had several lines on the meter that went into the red. On a CDR like my Tascam CD-750 it has 1 bar of red. If you go into the red it distorts BAD. There is no grace in that matter.

                                                                                      Having said all that....you could at the least get sound stage problems. But the worst of the problems, could be heard as skipping, (even though the player is not skipping) or straight distortion. But those are worst case problems, and should, like others have said before.....not a problem in a short run. But Audio, and MJB are right on in all their post.

                                                                                      I just thought that I would try and explain a few other digital problems, other than Sound Stage.
                                                                                      The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Lex
                                                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                        • Apr 2001
                                                                                        • 27461

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Yeah Juan Carlos, I tend to agree, this could go on forever, and has in other places. This thread is beginning to wear on my patience, it's always the same arguments, well typically, and eventually, it could well turn into fisticuffs, although kudos on good behavor so far guys.

                                                                                        We've just about reached the point of diminishing returns on this thread's value though. So, let's wrap it up soon. Maybe in time for Christmas, lol.

                                                                                        Doug
                                                                                        Doug
                                                                                        "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

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