Bryston 3B ST to Bryston 4B SST... worth the upgrade?

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • MattCXII
    Member
    • Feb 2004
    • 90

    Bryston 3B ST to Bryston 4B SST... worth the upgrade?

    Hey everyone,

    I have a chance to upgrade my two channel by selling my 120w per ch. 3B ST to the new 200w per ch. 4B SST for 1200 Canadian. Do you think it's a worth while upgrade or would I be better off putting the money elsewhere? Please respond back as soon as possible with your suggestions as this deal will not last for me.

    How about all you Bryston amp owners? Worth it?

    Thanks,

    Matt
  • Armbender
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2005
    • 265

    #2
    The 4B SST is a 300W/CH amp and if your getting one for 1200 ill take 5 .
    I am running my 604's with this amp upgrading from the 1080 and I could never part with mine now. When my wife can honestley say that she notices a difference, Ive made the right choice.
    Samsung UN60C6300 | Primare SP32 | Primare A30.7 | Oppo BDP-103 | PS Audio Quintet | AppleTV | ELAC 247 Black Edition | ELAC CC 241 Black Edition | B&W DM 600 S3 | SVS PC 13 Ultra | Straight Wire Virtuoso | Harmonic Technology Pro 9's | Black Sands Power Cords

    Comment

    • MattCXII
      Member
      • Feb 2004
      • 90

      #3
      Im sorry. Hahahha,


      No, Im not getting one for 1200 CAD. Im factoring the selling of my 3B ST at 1000 CAD and Im getting it for a total of 2200 CAD. Please keep the comments coming as I am still unsure as to if I should go there.

      Thank you for correcting me on the watts too.

      Thanks a ton everyone,

      Matt

      Comment

      • george_k
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2004
        • 342

        #4
        Matt where in Canada are you getting the 4B-SST at $2200? That's a great price are you getting it new or used?

        Comment

        • GregLett
          Senior Member
          • May 2005
          • 753

          #5
          The 4BSST has my vote. I've heard the 3BSST and the 4B is alot better.
          Greg

          Comment

          • MattCXII
            Member
            • Feb 2004
            • 90

            #6
            George_K,

            It's used. Approx 2 years old.

            Comment

            • Adz
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2004
              • 549

              #7
              The SST uses a completely different output stage - main impact is reduced distortion.
              Adz

              Comment

              • eddiem67
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2004
                • 139

                #8
                Definitely upgrade, it is definitely worth it.
                My Car Audio

                Comment

                • Adz
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 549

                  #9
                  Looks like the general consensus from this very knowledgeable base of people is to "go for it". If you are searching for even more opinions from owners and fans alike - you can ask your question here too! Good luck.
                  Adz

                  Comment

                  • Victor
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2002
                    • 338

                    #10
                    Originally posted by MattCXII
                    Hey everyone,

                    I have a chance to upgrade my two channel by selling my 120w per ch. 3B ST to the new 200w per ch. 4B SST for 1200 Canadian. Do you think it's a worth while upgrade or would I be better off putting the money elsewhere? Please respond back as soon as possible with your suggestions as this deal will not last for me.

                    How about all you Bryston amp owners? Worth it?

                    Thanks,

                    Matt
                    Matt,

                    You will not see any improvement from this upgrade. Fundamentally it is a waste of money. There are many reasons here; - the main one is your speakers.

                    I looked at your profile and noticed that you are using Paradigm Minitor7. They are quite good, but they are also very forgiving and the amp does not really have to work all that hard to drive them to the ear-splitting levels. So, the apparent increase in power that 4B-SST will give you is a mute point.

                    Do not worry too much about distortion either. The THD improvement that the SST line brings relative to the ST line is more of an academic nature. Yes, the SST is better in this regard, but marginally so. Here is another issue, - the distortion of your speakers is around 1% or greater dependant on the frequency, therefore, as far as the distortion is concerned your speakers are weakest link in your audio chain. The ST amp is virtually distortion free when driving your Paradigms.

                    The SST amp is not a radical departure from the ST line, just look at the published schematics. The output stage is not different, only the output stage transistors had been changed. While this change is a step in the right direction with new transistors being a lot better, the overall performance does not improve dramatically. It is not surprising, because for the performance to improve the topology change will be necessary. Bryston’s output stage is very clever and it works well. The THD limitation is in not there; - it is in the input topology. I do not think that it is possibly to really improve the output stage of Bryston amps, regardless of the transistor used.

                    I would say that the SST design is a better engineering product but it is not a new design at all, - it is more of a tweak of the ST line. Mind you, the ST line is a tweak of a NRB line. Overall Bryston circuit topology has not changed appreciably in many years. This is not bad, because it works well, but I will not go out and spend thousands on a tweak.

                    Comment

                    • Clive
                      Former Moderator
                      • Jan 2002
                      • 919

                      #11
                      Just to get it striaght how much would the 3b-ST be worth today in Cnd$ you say?
                      CLIVE




                      HEY!! Why buy movie tickets when you can own a Theater?

                      Comment

                      • Victor
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2002
                        • 338

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Clive
                        Just to get it striaght how much would the 3b-ST be worth today in Cnd$ you say?
                        Well, you may find one for about $1000 Can.

                        Comment

                        • Adz
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 549

                          #13
                          Its no secret. From the Bryston website:
                          If you ever do upgrade your speakers, you sure will be pissed off if you did't pull the trigger for $750-800.

                          "Among the advances included in this new SST Series are: Faster, more linear and more reliable output transistors for better high frequency accuracy; doubled filter capacitance for even deeper and better-controlled bass; a new proprietary grounding protocol which eliminates the need for ground-lift switches and reduces system noise; new computer-modeled heatsink profile for cooler operation and longer component life."
                          Adz

                          Comment

                          • Victor
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2002
                            • 338

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Adz
                            "Among the advances included in this new SST Series are: Faster, more linear and more reliable output transistors for better high frequency accuracy; doubled filter capacitance for even deeper and better-controlled bass; a new proprietary grounding protocol which eliminates the need for ground-lift switches and reduces system noise; new computer-modeled heatsink profile for cooler operation and longer component life."
                            Adz,

                            Naturally, those are wonderful words, - but what do they really mean?

                            Let’s see, - Bryston changed output transistors to a faster switching devices. They went from what appeared to be a 1 MHz unity gain transistors to what appears to be 20 MHz. That’s great; I would not want to use slower devices if a faster one is available. What is the expected improvement? Well, I would expect a better high-frequency THD performance. However, the problem is that Bryston output stage is not a plain vanilla push-pull driver. If it were that, then the improvement would have been evident.

                            Bryston’s output stage is a clever arrangement whereby the output stage has voltage gain and it also has its own negative feedback loop. This set-up is the reason why Bryston amps sport those stellar THD numbers. This set-up kind of goes against the textbook approach and under normal circumstances usually does not work well because of stability problems, but Bryston managed to get it to work, - good for them.

                            Anyway, the THD is already very low and faster transistor would not have any more then an academic effect on the overall linearity. If you look at the specifications, you’ll see it yourself. I’ll give you an analogy here, - you just put on performance tires on your Ford Taurus, but you did not change your driving habits (speakers are still what they were before). Do you feel that you are now driving a sports car? Anyway, faster transistor is a way to go, but it is a fallacy to expect an improvement in the context of a sophisticated output stage as Bryston employs.

                            Let’s look at the filter capacitors; - 4B-SST schematic indicates that there are four 5600 uF caps per rail. 3B-ST has two 7500 uF capacitors per rail. Are you telling me that the difference of 7400 uF will somehow contribute to a major improvement in bass performance?

                            Well, practice shows that under normal use with 90 dB efficient full range speakers, 10,000 uF capacitance hanging off 50 Volt rail is adequate for about any music you may throw at it. If 30,000 uF is used there are reports that the bass gets a little better if you are partial to well-recorded organ music. Going from 15,000 uF to 22,500 uF will not change your life at all. Bryston is using a judicial amount of filter capacitance and there is nothing wrong with what they had done in SST line, but to say that in constitutes a major improvement over the ST line is a stretch at best.

                            Let’ look at better grounding. This might be important, providing that the existing scheme was somehow poorly designed. Bryston original approach was a classic resistor between an Earth ground and the signal ground. I say classic because countless amplifiers used the same techniques. Can you do better? Sure, - but why? Does it contribute to a better THD? Most likely not. Is it a better engineering? Perhaps.

                            All in all, as I said before, the SST line is a better amp, but the improvements are marginal in my view. Bryston has tweaked the original NRB and achieved marginally better performance. SST-line is not a new amp; it is a logical evolution of a proven design.

                            The question I am asking, - is the SST amp worth the money? I do not think so. You want a revolutionary amp, - buy an Ampzilla for the same money! Otherwise, you can get an amp today as good as Bryston for about $2-4 per Watt.

                            Victor

                            Comment

                            • Adz
                              Senior Member
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 549

                              #15
                              I don't disagree with most of your discussion (the factual part anyone makes sense). Then there is also the archeitecture and the execution of the build design and their impact on the overall sound which I do believe throws some of the science out the window. They boast distortion is reduced not only on paper but also in substantive testing but can a layperson really audibly hear it and is it worth it? I have never a/b'ed an ST with an SST so I couldn't say otherwise in a real situation. A big & fun part of this hobby is all about the proverbial tweaking out the "nth" degree of improvement within one's system and within one's budget (or outside of them as with most of us ) and following on your OWN statement that the biggest reason the guy wont hear a difference is his type of speaker implies to me (if logic holds true) that you think with other speakers he or others will hear a difference.

                              Further on the nth degree, anecdotal evidence from audio enthusiasts have heard discernable improvements between the old and new line and unlike yourself they were not associated in either a good or bad way with Bryston (as I recall you used to be an employed by Bryston if I am not mistaken, but I could be confusing you with someone else).

                              Now FWIW, I have directly demo'ed in my home for days an amp that was $2.50 a watt (Rotel 1080) against my 6BSST and there was clearly an audible difference between the 6 line. A different sound and I preferred the 6B as did others. Now the 6b is double the price at $5 a watt but is it double the performance? I don't know what that means or how to measure it, it just has a different sound that I found to be better to my ears (less harsh, less tinny sounding, more air) if that makes sense. Throw in the warranty, its reliability and the build factor and it made a lot of sense to me both financially and musically to trade up.
                              Last edited by Adz; 21 October 2005, 09:10 Friday.
                              Adz

                              Comment

                              • Victor
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2002
                                • 338

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Adz
                                I don't disagree with most of your discussion (the factual part anyone makes sense). Then there is also the archeitecture and the execution of the build design and their impact on the overall sound which I do believe throws some of the science out the window.
                                No, it does not. The science can never be thrown out the window. When you do this, you are left with playing a guessing game, while acting like a blind kitten.

                                The architecture of Bryston amplifiers is a classic complementary design dating back to early ‘70s. Most commercial amplifiers are still built that way today. The differences between them have to do with tuning and biasing, but the architecture is basically unchanged. There are exceptions to this, - but they are rare. What differentiates Bryston amps from others is its output stage, but I already discussed that and its impact on the overall linearity.


                                Originally posted by Adz
                                They boast distortion is reduced not only on paper but also in substantive testing but can a layperson really audibly hear it and is it worth it?
                                I guarantee you that the answer is resounding, - no. Bryston amps are completely transparent and regardless of the state of your hearing it is humanly impossible to tell them apart under controlled conditions. Again, look at the specifications, - they are published. The difference between the ST line and the SST line is 0.002%. Is it substantive? Hardly. The THD of all Bryston amps is excellent.


                                Originally posted by Adz
                                I have never a/b'ed an ST with an SST so I couldn't say otherwise in a real situation. A big & fun part of this hobby is all about the proverbial tweaking out the "nth" degree of improvement within one's system and within one's budget (or outside of them as with most of us ) and following on your OWN statement that the biggest reason the guy wont hear a difference is his type of speaker implies to me (if logic holds true) that you think with other speakers he or others will hear a difference.
                                Monitor7 is not a full range speaker. It can do an honest 45 Hz at the low end. Naturally if you were to use a 20-25 Hz capable speaker or a simply better/different speaker you would hear differences regardless what amp is used.


                                Originally posted by Adz
                                Further on the nth degree, anecdotal evidence from audio enthusiasts have heard discernable improvements between the old and new line.
                                Indeed the evidence was always anecdotal. In fact, when you change the individual, the evidence is changed just as well. This is a problem with using your ears as instruments. Under controlled conditions, no differences are heard nor ever been documented.

                                Originally posted by Adz
                                …and unlike yourself they were not associated in either a good or bad way with Bryston (as I recall you used to be an employed by Bryston if I am not mistaken, but I could be confusing you with someone else).
                                Yes, I used to work for Bryston years ago. That’s the reason I am familiar with Bryston products. I happen to like Bryston’s engineering approach to circuit design; - it is very level-headed. Although there are a few circuit design decisions I would question on engineering grounds, my point in this thread was regarding the cost of Bryston products. The question I asked, - is it worth money?

                                Originally posted by Adz
                                Now FWIW, I have directly demo'ed in my home for days an amp that was $2.50 a watt (Rotel 1080) against my 6BSST and there was clearly an audible difference between the 6 line. A different sound and I preferred the 6B as did others. Now the 6b is double the price at $5 a watt but is it double the performance? I don't know what that means or how to measure it, it just has a different sound that I found to be better to my ears (less harsh, less tinny sounding, more air) if that makes sense. Throw in the warranty, its reliability and the build factor and it made a lot of sense to me both financially and musically to trade up.
                                Simply setting two amps side by side and plugging them into the set of speakers does not constitute a test. You may prefer one amp or the other, but you can never tell which one is actually better, because you cannot define what ‘better’ actually means.

                                I know from experience that nobody can tell two well-designed amps apart under controlled test, as long as you do not push the design envelopes of the amps involved in testing.

                                As far as your Rotel-6BSST experience is concerned, the example that comes to my mind is a ‘blind contest of two amps’ that I participated in about 5 years ago. The contestants were, - $10,000 Mark Levinson and $400 Yamaha receiver. Both were set up to drive a full range low distortion dipole speaker system. A nearly dozen people, some with conservatory education, took part in this test, - which yelled statistically insignificant results. In other words it was like flipping a coin. Nobody could tell the Levinson from Yamaha in a Blind Test. That does not mean that Yamaha is better then the Levinson, naturally it is not.

                                Anyway, I do not criticize Bryston products, I actually like them. The warrantee alone is a big deal here. The amps are also solidly built. I only question their value when you consider that comparable product can be had for a lot less these days.

                                Victor

                                Comment

                                • Adz
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2004
                                  • 549

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Victor
                                  Simply setting two amps side by side and plugging them into the set of speakers does not constitute a test. You may prefer one amp or the other, but you can never tell which one is actually better, because you cannot define what ‘better’ actually means......
                                  Semantics. This is silly. Why do we enjoy this hobby? Why do we spend our hard earned money on separates or receivers that cost more than $400? Why are we here posting? Forget "better" then. Throw it out the window. What do I prefer? I know it when I hear it, as most of us do, just like with food or art for example. It makes us smile and we know then its worth it. My senses subjectively tell me that I prefer one amp over the other or that I don't. How do I define this? To me, for one thing, it means that I can listen for long periods of time without fatigue. To me, it means cranking up the volume and setting each amp so that it reads the same on an SPL meter and listening to my favorite scene or song and seeing if I can pick out which has bigger cleaner bass for one thing or highs that don't make me cringe. And believe me, its amazing how different they sounded. I wish I had been blindfolded to mitigate the impact of sight, but I never thought of that.

                                  BTW, I've heard about that Mark Levinson test against a $400 receiver by the way -- I've seen it posted by others in other forums. I will try to find it if I can and paste the URL. Lots of people must have attended that one.


                                  Originally posted by Victor
                                  .....The warrantee alone is a big deal here. The amps are also solidly built. I only question their value when you consider that comparable product can be had for a lot less these days.
                                  O.K., then what "solidly built" "comparable" amp do you recommend as a trade-up for the author of this thread that can be had for a "lot less" than the incremental $1,700 or so he may spend on the 4BSST and will get him the similar warranty, which as you say, is a "big deal" ?

                                  Originally posted by Victor
                                  Anyway, I do not criticize Bryston products, I actually like them.......
                                  Cool! I look forward to one day reading your posts on other brands of amps as well that are being discussed and considered by posters on this Forum. :T Something tells me that probably won't happen though.
                                  Adz

                                  Comment

                                  • Victor
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Apr 2002
                                    • 338

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Adz
                                    What do I prefer? I know it when I hear it, as most of us do, just like with food or art for example. It makes us smile and we know then its worth it. My senses subjectively tell me that I prefer one amp over the other or that I don't.
                                    You see, electronics is not an art form. It is not like the painting by your favorite artist or like the food you happen to favor. Electronics is not subject to an emotional response.

                                    Electronics is all about application of laws of physics as we know them. This is why we characterize amplifiers by a set of well defined parameters, like the THD+N for example. We do not characterize amplifiers by their warmth or transparency or harshness or whatever other terms you may find that are more applicable to your sense of color or taste.

                                    This is why Blind Testing is used to show that our senses betray us all the time. Blind test introduces a Control Group that is necessary to make an informed opinion.

                                    Originally posted by Adz
                                    what "solidly built" "comparable" amp do you recommend as a trade-up for the author of this thread that can be had for a "lot less" than the incremental $1,700 or so he may spend on the 4BSST and will get him the similar warranty, which as you say, is a "big deal" ?
                                    I would recommend keeping the 3B-ST. It will be next to impossible to get an appreciably better 120 Watt per channel amp, particularly if the load is a Monitor7 speaker. The $900-1000 (Can) that the 3B-ST could be sold for will not buy anything significantly better either. As I pointed out previously spending another $1500 or so will not get you an improvement, so why bother.

                                    I do not buy amps, - I build my own. However, if I were on the market for power amps, I would perhaps look at Rotel offerings. There are others, but I would have to take a look at the models that are available these days. Personally, I like Usher Class A amps from Taiwan. They are rare in US or Canada and are more expensive that I would like, but they are in my view better then Bryston and are cheaper overall. I also like Carver designs.

                                    Originally posted by Adz
                                    I look forward to one day reading your posts on other brands of amps as well that are being discussed and considered by posters on this Forum. Something tells me that probably won't happen though.
                                    I do not post often. I do not usually discuss commercially available amps. I know that all amps sound the same as long as they are well designed.

                                    So, as far as I am concerned, no discussion is really necessary. As long as the build quality, warrantee, power levels, THD+N numbers, etc. are what you are looking for, then any amp will do the job.

                                    Personally I would look for an amp that stands out in terms of topology. A good example can be an Ampzilla with its fully differential implementation. It is pricey though. In any event, a 200W per channel Rotel will do just about anything for just about anybody for less then $4 per Watt.

                                    Victor

                                    Comment

                                    • bigburner
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • May 2005
                                      • 2649

                                      #19
                                      Victor, very interesting posts. Thank you.

                                      Looking at the specifications and the published schematics, would you mind comparing and contrasting the Bryston 4B-SST and the Rotel RB-1080 for us?

                                      Does the science indicate that the listener should be able to hear any differences between these two amps?

                                      Comment

                                      • soundhound
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2004
                                        • 815

                                        #20
                                        Bigburner, I believe that was the point Victor was trying to make, No.

                                        Originally posted by Victor:
                                        "You see, electronics is not an art form. It is not like the painting by your favorite artist or like the food you happen to favor. Electronics is not subject to an emotional response".

                                        Victor, you have apparently never listened to a Jolida JD100 cd player.
                                        Last edited by soundhound; 22 October 2005, 14:56 Saturday.

                                        Comment

                                        • GregLett
                                          Senior Member
                                          • May 2005
                                          • 753

                                          #21
                                          Humm. Well I've heard the 3B SST and the 4BSST, and there is a big difference.
                                          Not something that you have to sit and carefully listen to notice, it's immediate.
                                          The 3B and the Rotel RB-1080, are about the same, I auditioned the two in my system (not this current system) but the 4B is clearly better, no question.
                                          Greg

                                          Comment

                                          • NewBuyer
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Feb 2005
                                            • 122

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by GregLett
                                            Humm. Well I've heard the 3B SST and the 4BSST, and there is a big difference.
                                            Not something that you have to sit and carefully listen to notice, it's immediate.
                                            The 3B and the Rotel RB-1080, are about the same, I auditioned the two in my system (not this current system) but the 4B is clearly better, no question.
                                            Just curious: What type of clearly better differences do you hear?

                                            Comment

                                            • eddiem67
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jun 2004
                                              • 139

                                              #23
                                              I just sold a 4B-SST to a guy who replaced his Rotel, he was literally floored by the performance of the 4B-SST, and was amazed how clear and accurate it was...another satisfied customer.
                                              My Car Audio

                                              Comment

                                              • george_k
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jan 2004
                                                • 342

                                                #24
                                                eddiem67,

                                                There is truth in the double-blind testing, the majority of the reason why it sounds better is most probably due to the fact that the customer paid more $$$ and expects it to sound better.

                                                Comment

                                                • RebelMan
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                  • 3139

                                                  #25
                                                  I have seen plenty of blind and double blind a/b testing results, from several sources, and in general the conclusions of such tests does show that the "majority" of listeners are inconsistent with their observations. In other words, they have trouble distinguishing between different power amplifiers. However, those same reports also go on to show that about 10 percent of the listeners can and do hear a difference, consistantly.

                                                  I can honestly say that I do not hear much if any differences between my Rotel RSX-1056 and Rotel RMB-1080 (under normal circumstances) which would concur with Victor's statement "I know from experience that nobody can tell two well-designed amps apart under controlled test, as long as you do not push the design envelopes of the amps involved in testing." However, I have also casually compared the Bryston SP 1.7/6B-SST combo to the Rotel RSP-1098/RMB-1095 combo (both driven in bypass mode) and the differences were quite obvious. (How much of this was due to the pre-amplifier versus the power amplifier is unknow, it was an informal test.)


                                                  Originally posted by Victor
                                                  You see, electronics is not an art form. It is not like the painting by your favorite artist or like the food you happen to favor. Electronics is not subject to an emotional response.
                                                  In the truest sense of the word there is some truth to this but the same could be said of the paint that covers the canvas. Neither entity is an art form. However, the synergy of these two things, when combined by the artisan, forms a picture that moves us by effecting our sense of sight in a way that is pleasing to the observer.

                                                  Likewise, and I believe most would agree, that the synergy between electronic devices as brought together by the electrical engineer also creates an element that effects our senses, that of sound, and this can be seen as an electronic art form. This was evident in the case of the Bryston/Rotel bout that I experienced. Futhermore, if it were not an art, then why would Rotel engineers voice their amplifiers? Rotel's "Balanced Design Concept" is based on this very principle.

                                                  In this case, I believe the 4B-SST upgrade is worth the price of admission both technically and acoustically and it would warrant a speaker upgrade when the time comes.
                                                  "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Adz
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Jan 2004
                                                    • 549

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Victor
                                                    I do not post often. I do not usually discuss commercially available amps. I know that all amps sound the same as long as they are well designed.

                                                    Victor
                                                    You can bring in a physics professor from MIT and I still wouldn't agree with you. Nobody questions your knowledge in this area but you just don't get it, and that's a shame.

                                                    I compared the Rotel 1080 to a Bryston for a few days using lots of material and they sounded differently. It was very noticeable. If it was a "sonic illusion" and my ears were playing tricks on me because I wasn't blindfolded, well then..... I don't listen to music or movies blindfolded so I think I'll take the amp that sounds better to me with all my senses in play. "Better" again means what I personally and emotionally prefer...sorry, not in a robotic sense based on a manufacturer's quoted specs (don't want to have to go through your painful diatribe on that point again).

                                                    And lighten up a bit. You are right -- you sure don't discuss commercial amps (at all actually) except when its the company you used to work for. Of course that is your perogative to, but for full disclosure, you should state that in your posts. You guys parted ways around 10 years ago I understand, and what happened is in the past -- so move on.

                                                    And Rebelman, you summed it up perfectly. I wish I could have conveyed it in the way you did.
                                                    Adz

                                                    Comment

                                                    • GregLett
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • May 2005
                                                      • 753

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by NewBuyer
                                                      Just curious: What type of clearly better differences do you hear?

                                                      Most noticeable was the bass. The 4B had better extension in that region. The over all presentation
                                                      was more "there" I believe the Audiophile word is "coherent".
                                                      Greg

                                                      Comment

                                                      • MattCXII
                                                        Member
                                                        • Feb 2004
                                                        • 90

                                                        #28
                                                        I must say I didn't expect this topic to generate such conversation. I have decided not to upgrade my amps quite yet. I will continue to use my RMB-1075 (center and surrounds) and my 3BST (mains) for some time. I have decided to place my money in a total speaker package upgrade.

                                                        I went with the Paradigm Reference Series:

                                                        Ref 40's
                                                        ADP 470's
                                                        Ref 570
                                                        Seismic 10

                                                        Im quite happy with this package and I feel I have recieved more for my dollar by going this way.

                                                        I may have to demo a digital amp when Rotel comes out with the 2ch 200W version.

                                                        Thanks for all the posts to mull over!

                                                        Matt

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Victor
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Apr 2002
                                                          • 338

                                                          #29
                                                          I was away for a few days and could not respond to this thread in timely fashion. I would like, however, to add few comments.

                                                          Adz wrote, - “…You can bring in a physics professor from MIT and I still wouldn't agree with you. Nobody questions your knowledge in this area but you just don't get it, and that's a shame…”

                                                          I am happy that you do not want to question my knowledge in this area, although you are welcome to do so. Also, a professor from MIT will tell you what I already told and perhaps you should take a few moments and think about it. I do not teach at MIT but I did go there.

                                                          I do not respond to threads on commercial amps because I do not have a first hand practical knowledge about the circuit topology, component quality and overall performance of those amps. However, I do have this knowledge regarding Bryston products.

                                                          In general, I do not like talking about things I have no practical experience with, - so you will not see any posts from me regarding products I never worked on.

                                                          Do not be offended by what I say regarding the Bryston products, although as I understand you are a great fun of Bryston, - belive me so am I. It is just I also am a great fun of looking at things without a marketing hype.

                                                          Let me get a bit technical here in an effort to show why all transistor driven power amps must sound the same, regardless of what you think you may be hearing. Amplifiers are by definition linear circuits and as such they are designed to accomplish one task only and it is to amplify an input signal. They must do nothing else.

                                                          RebelMan asks and I quote, - “…why would Rotel engineers voice their amplifiers?” Indeed Rotel engineers understand what I just said. They know that if they build the amp to be only linear then there will not be any Rotel-perceived sound! So, their amps do not just amplify, but also add a bit of distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations, - which is commonly known as voicing. Do we want that? I know that I do not. Do you?

                                                          The purpose of this great hobby of ours is to reproduce the sound as it was recorded on a CD or DVD. Sound reproduction is all about having a zero-distortion signal processing chain. That would mean that any signal, other then the one that recording engineer has intended for you to hear, represents a distortion of the original soundtrack. Again, I must ask, - do you want that? Because if you do, and it is perfectly fine with me, then you will in fact spend your time listening to different power amps and rightfully expecting them to sound different.

                                                          On the other hand, if a distortion-free sound is what you are after, then you must look at the parameter such as the THD. In the case of the Bryston amps, the THD is as good as it gets these days.

                                                          What does this THD mean? It is a measurement of how spectrally different the output signal is from the input signal in a given power amp. Only a wire will in theory give you a zero THD. However, it has been decisively shown that a human hearing is capable of distinguishing between signals with a THD on the order of not lower then about 1%. Meaning, that you will hear difference between two amps if one of them has high THD and the other does not.

                                                          Look at the Bryston product specs and you will see the published THD numbers on the order of 0.05% or lower. Do you really think you can hear that? Do you really think you can hear difference between two amps when both have THD specifications lower then even 0.1%? If you can, then you are more unique then Lucian Pavarotti!

                                                          Now, why do people claim to hear differences? It is simple really, - what you hear are the amplitude variations, not spectral differences. This is why you must properly set-up a Blind Test, so that the playing field is fair to all participants, - otherwise the amp that is set to be a little lauder will win the context, - just ask an experienced salesman at your local Hi End store. Human hearing, you know, is capable to distinguishing a 0.1 dB of difference in a volume level.

                                                          Well, - here you have it,

                                                          Regards,
                                                          Victor

                                                          Comment

                                                          • GregLett
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • May 2005
                                                            • 753

                                                            #30
                                                            Well said Victor. But is goes back to what everyone says about amps. They do sound different, you have just explained why. So I don't think it's correct to say that people claim to hear differences, when you have just explained to us what it is that causes an amp to sound different. The engineering might not be perfect on that amp, but I understand what causes the different sound.
                                                            Greg

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Adz
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Jan 2004
                                                              • 549

                                                              #31
                                                              I'll second that, Very Well said. You are certainly the master of theory, at least. But I think(?) you contradicted yourself as Greg points out.

                                                              Further, you also recommended Rotel in an earlier post and then dissed it today-- see both posts below. What gives? (I think this is very much on topic to this thread since the poster had claimed that amps sound alike and also recommended Rotel over upgrading to a Bryston 4B in an earlier post).


                                                              Originally posted by Victor
                                                              I do not buy amps, - I build my own. However, if I were on the market for power amps, I would perhaps look at Rotel offerings.....In any event, a 200W per channel Rotel will do just about anything for just about anybody for less then $4 per Watt.
                                                              VS.

                                                              Originally posted by Victor
                                                              RebelMan asks and I quote, - “…why would Rotel engineers voice their amplifiers?” Indeed Rotel engineers understand what I just said. They know that if they build the amp to be only linear then there will not be any Rotel-perceived sound! So, their amps do not just amplify, but also add a bit of distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations, - which is commonly known as voicing. Do we want that? I know that I do not. Do you?
                                                              Last edited by Adz; 26 October 2005, 05:11 Wednesday.
                                                              Adz

                                                              Comment

                                                              • MattCXII
                                                                Member
                                                                • Feb 2004
                                                                • 90

                                                                #32
                                                                Can we not sway too far from the original purpose of the post? This was not generated so people could flame each other. I appreciate everyone's opinion very much.

                                                                Thanks,

                                                                Matt

                                                                Comment

                                                                • RebelMan
                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                  • 3139

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Victor
                                                                  RebelMan asks and I quote, - “…why would Rotel engineers voice their amplifiers?” Indeed Rotel engineers understand what I just said. They know that if they build the amp to be only linear then there will not be any Rotel-perceived sound! So, their amps do not just amplify, but also add a bit of distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations, - which is commonly known as voicing. Do we want that? I know that I do not. Do you?
                                                                  I think you are making some gross assumptions here. In Rotel's own words...

                                                                  "Balance Design combines both hard science and experienced intuition to bring you closer to the source…any source, be it music or movies…and to let you hear without compromise exactly what the artists intended you to hear.

                                                                  Nothing more. And certainly nothing less."
                                                                  "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • NewBuyer
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Feb 2005
                                                                    • 122

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by RebelMan
                                                                    ...In Rotel's own words...

                                                                    "Balance Design combines both hard science and experienced intuition to bring you closer to the source…any source, be it music or movies…and to let you hear without compromise exactly what the artists intended you to hear..."

                                                                    Wouldn't the artists want you to hear their work through an "unvoiced" amplifier then???

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • bigburner
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • May 2005
                                                                      • 2649

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by Victor
                                                                      Indeed Rotel engineers understand what I just said. They know that if they build the amp to be only linear then there will not be any Rotel-perceived sound! So, their amps do not just amplify, but also add a bit of distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations, - which is commonly known as voicing.
                                                                      Victor, a couple of questions if I may:

                                                                      Are the distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations included in the amp's THD specifications, and if not, can they be measured, and how?

                                                                      What characteristics are the engineers trying to achieve with their distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations? Is listening included in their experimentation?

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Victor
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Apr 2002
                                                                        • 338

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by bigburner
                                                                        Are the distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations included in the amp's THD specifications, and if not, can they be measured, and how?

                                                                        What characteristics are the engineers trying to achieve with their distortion and/or frequency-dependant amplitude variations? Is listening included in their experimentation?
                                                                        The THD measurement is a classic evaluation technique. It gives us a measure by which we can say if the signal that went in, is the same as the signal that came out. When I say the same, I do not mean the amplitude or how big the signal is. After all an amplifier must amplify. I mean the frequency of the input signal is still the same as the frequency of the output signal. A gross example perhaps might be this, - let’s say we have an amplifier with very high THD like 1% or so. You plug this amp in and you play your favorite selection that you have heard many times before. The sound that you will hear will be very different from what you expect it to be. Why? Because it is distorted.

                                                                        Voicing comes to us as a result of many studies conducted on human hearing. Those studies indicate that humans prefer to hear a particular set of frequencies with particular amplitudes. For instance, high even order distortion does sounds very warm to many people, while high odd order distortion products sound harsh. Furthermore, a slight low-pass effect of frequencies past 3 kHz results in less bright and more neutral sound. Again those preferences are statistical in nature and they come to us as a result of studies conducted on many individuals.

                                                                        Another good example here is tube-base amplifiers that many audiophiles like so much. It is a common knowledge that the use of tubes results in “majestic” sound, although the specs are terrible. Look at the classic Cary 300 single-ended triode amp. It is a distortion city, but there is a religious following with people going to the barricades in defense of that obsolete technology. Why? Because they say it sounds good. What sounds good? People really do not know that they are listening to the grossly distorted sound with high content of even order distortion which is by the trick of nature sounds pleasing to humans.

                                                                        Personally I prefer undistorted and therefore unvoiced electronics. However, even Zigfrid Linkwitz thinks that a minor voicing is a good idea. And he advocated compensation “…to account for differences in the ear's free-field and diffuse-field response and differences between sound pressure pickup in recording and playback environments…” Nothing wrong with that. Rotel engineers may have their own ideas and therefore their own voicing preferences. Bryston amps are not voiced at all.

                                                                        Well, where does it leave us? It seems to me that any amp with low THD can be thought of as a completely transparent for the purposes of human hearing. With this in mind, if you use such amp within its design envelope, i.e. you do not demand more power from it then it can give without excessive distortion, then the output signal will be spectrally identical to the input signal. Therefore, it is irrelevant what is written on the faceplate of such amp. It can be $5000 Krell or $2500 Bryston, or $800 Rotel (providing no voicing is used) - no differences due to the amp characteristics can ever be heard. To say that you can hear differences is to defy logic.

                                                                        These days you can have a transparent 200 Watt (8 Ohm) amp for about $600-800US. For more money you will get a better sheet metal box, better warrantee, better cosmetics, perhaps even better connectors, perhaps better ergonomics, more accessories like a 12 Volt trigger, etc, etc., but you will never get a better sound.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • NewBuyer
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Feb 2005
                                                                          • 122

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Victor, thanks for the excellent posts!

                                                                          So for amplifiers with THD figures less than 0.05% (implying that any distortion is much less than humans can hear), does this effectively mean that the amplifier is not "voiced"?

                                                                          I'm also curious about amplifier manufacturers claiming unique technology. For instance, the A5cr power amplifier for which Musical Fidelity boasts the use of choke regulation, which is said to eliminate power-supply ripple and also to very effectively kill any noise on the AC power line. Are these features worth the extra cash, or just marketing hype to people who don't know any better?

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • bigburner
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • May 2005
                                                                            • 2649

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by NewBuyer
                                                                            So for amplifiers with THD figures less than 0.05% (implying that any distortion is much less than humans can hear), does this effectively mean that the amplifier is not "voiced"?
                                                                            You took the question right out of my mouth NewBuyer. Is that what it means, Victor?

                                                                            If THD is not due to voicing, what is the cause of THD?

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Victor
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Apr 2002
                                                                              • 338

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by NewBuyer
                                                                              So for amplifiers with THD figures less than 0.05% (implying that any distortion is much less than humans can hear), does this effectively mean that the amplifier is not "voiced"?
                                                                              I guess my comment regarding the ‘voicing’ was not all that clear. Voicing is not related to the THD. Voicing in general is an attempt to change the frequency response of the power amp. Frequency response is a way to look at the linear circuit, such as a power amp, and observe the output amplitude of the signal as a function of frequency.

                                                                              Naturally we are mostly concerned with 20-20,000 Hz frequency range. We also expect the amplitude or the level of the signal to be perfectly flat across the audible frequency range. If the amplitude is not flat, then you will perceive it as volume level variations. One can tailor those variations in order to come up with a specific cocktail of a sound. This is voicing.

                                                                              Personally I think it is not a good idea to voice the power amp, but many companies do and then claim to have designed a power amp that sounds better and distinct from others. I agree with distinct part, but it is not better. All DIY guys that build their own speakers and therefore design active cross-overs for them or, as I do, use available digital DSP-driven units, voice the overall frequency response to suit their taste in sound. I think that voicing firmly belongs in the lower power circuits, such cross-overs or equalizers, - to voice a power amp is to introduce a complexity where it does not belong, fundamentally it is a mistake.

                                                                              So, voicing - is a frequency response variation that manifests itself as a volume change at certain specially selected frequency ranges within 20-20,000Hz span. Voicing is absolutely audible and some people will like it and some will not.

                                                                              THD, on the other hand, is a total harmonic distortion; - it is a mathematical collection of all distortions at all frequencies of interest and is presented as a single number for simplicity sake. THD is a product of the inherent non-linearity of the circuit. It is a bad thing. These days it is an evidence of an inferior design.

                                                                              The main cause of THD is the fact that electronic devices, such as transistors, that are used in a power amplifier design are only linear within limited range of frequencies and power levels. Whenever the signal exceeds or even gets close to those limits the THD raises to unacceptable levels. Circuit topologies, such as negative feedback and others, have been developed to combat these phenomena, but they only work to a degree. Bryston’s famous output stage that the company has used for many years is an example of the attempt to decrease the THD when the signal gets close to the limit of linearity. It works very well.

                                                                              Some 25 years ago Hawksford published a power amp design that uses a feed-forward technique resulting in 0.001% THD, but no company ever made it commercial. This still represents the state of the art even today. Bryston’s basic circuit is about just as old and works down to 0.005% THD, - it is also as good as it gets. There are a few others with comparable specs, but not too many. Ampzilla and Boulder also come to mind. Most amps that use classic fully complimentary circuit topology, that dates back to early 1970’s, but no other circuit tricks, will sport the THD on the order of just less then 0.1%.

                                                                              The important part with the THD understanding is to observe that if a low THD is claimed by the manufacturer, that low THD is evident at all power levels and all frequencies of interests. It is often that the manufacturer will only give you a distortion specification at one frequency, like 1 kHz, because it happens be low, but it may turn out that at 20 KHz it is very high. Also the THD may suffer at higher power levels or with lower impedance speakers, - one must check. Bryston amps do not suffer from those ills, although with 4 Ohm loads or lower, the THD does increase, but not too bad.

                                                                              Originally posted by NewBuyer
                                                                              I'm also curious about amplifier manufacturers claiming unique technology. For instance, the A5cr power amplifier for which Musical Fidelity boasts the use of choke regulation, which is said to eliminate power-supply ripple and also to very effectively kill any noise on the AC power line. Are these features worth the extra cash, or just marketing hype to people who don't know any better?
                                                                              I looked through the Musical Fidelity site. Their products look fine to me. The use of choke in a power supply is a technique commonly used to reduce the noise. Is it effective? Yes. However, if the amp is well designed overall, the use of a choke in a power supply represents an icing on the cake. In other words it does not make things appreciably better.

                                                                              regards,
                                                                              victor

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              Working...
                                                                              😀
                                                                              😂
                                                                              🥰
                                                                              😘
                                                                              🤢
                                                                              😎
                                                                              😞
                                                                              😡
                                                                              👍
                                                                              👎
                                                                              Searching...Please wait.
                                                                              An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                                                                              Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                                                              An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                                                                              Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                                                                              An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                                                                              There are no results that meet this criteria.
                                                                              Search Result for "|||"