How do I know if I need power conditioning?

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  • tboooe
    Senior Member
    • Jun 2005
    • 657

    How do I know if I need power conditioning?

    In my eternal quest to reach musical nirvana I have now turned my attention to power conditioning and power cables. I understand the improvements that may be gained by power cables may be subjective so I will avoid talking about that topic here. What I am curious about is how I know if getting a power conditioner like the PS Audio P500 will actually help my system. Is it really better than simply plugging my gear into a surge protected power strip? Does having something like the P 500 really make a real difference in sound? How do I know if the power coming from my outlet is "dirty"? Or do I just assume that any power coming from an outlet is bad? Forgive me if these are lame questions. I am not an EE, nor am I well verse in the technical side of our crazy hobby.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  • aud19
    Twin Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2003
    • 16706

    #2
    "Easy" ways of telling would be if you get a lot of power outages, do your lights dim when you turn on certain aplpiances etc. Things like that. Other than that the only way to tell for sure is test equipment or already having protection gear on...
    Jason

    Comment

    • Snap
      Super Senior Member
      • Feb 2005
      • 1295

      #3
      Not to sure on the HT side of the house, But a buddy of mine did some recordings using Pro tools and Neumann mics along with a bunch of other high end crud. Did one recording with no power conditioning and 1 running every thing through Furman Power Conditioners. He say's that there is a VERY noticable difference in the 2. I am supposed to hear the tracks later this week.

      I say all that to finally say this... If you are running AWESOME gear for your whole system it probably would help.

      If you are running "less than awesome" gear then you probably will not hear anything.
      Basically do not run your Bose (not saying you have bose) system through a power conditioner and expect to hear much better sound.

      That is my take on them. I am not willing to spend the money on my system to see if it works or not. I do not have what I would concider "high end" HT. Good, above average, but No Canton, with Bryston amps....etc

      But that is MO
      The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

      Comment

      • aud19
        Twin Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2003
        • 16706

        #4
        I'll add that when I put power conditioning in my system one of the biggest improvements was picture, not sound. Even regular SD cable looked better nevermind DVD's
        Jason

        Comment

        • Snap
          Super Senior Member
          • Feb 2005
          • 1295

          #5
          :scratchhead: humm better PQ....I might want to check that out...start working on the excuses to give to the wife.....:yesnod:
          The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

          Comment

          • ht_addict
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2002
            • 508

            #6
            Couple of things you can do.

            1. If you have a dealer you deal with on a consistant basis, why not ask for a loaner to test.

            2. If no to #1 goto your local BB or CC, purchase a unit, give it a try and if not pleased return with the 30days.

            Comment

            • scottielee
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2005
              • 121

              #7
              my tv also has better picture quality and quicker response when plugged into my power conditioner.

              ps audio has a 30 day money back policy if you order from its website.

              before trying power conditioners, i suggest finding out how much is it to install one dedicated circuit for your analog gear and one for digital. the installation should cost around $200 and could provide better results than conditioners costing many times more.

              best of luck!

              Comment

              • tboooe
                Senior Member
                • Jun 2005
                • 657

                #8
                scottielee:
                can you please explain why getting a dedicated circuit is better than getting a AC regenerator like the PS Audio P-500?

                Comment

                • brucek
                  HTG Expert
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 303

                  #9
                  can you please explain why getting a dedicated circuit is better than getting a AC regenerator like the PS Audio P-500?
                  Short answer. The PS Audio costs >$2000 and supplies 500 watts of clean power. The dedicated circuit costs $200 and supplies 2400 watts of clean power.

                  Long answer. There are certainly good reasons (other than the obvious load requirements) to install a dedicated circuit. I do feel that there's a bit of overkill in the number of circuits that some people install, but that is usually a matter of miniscule incremental cost increase when a single dedicated circuit is already being installed. It's not the same as the line in the movie Contact, "why build one, when you can build two at twice the price"... In the case of a dedicated circuit installation, the second or third circuit is a mere fractional increase over the cost of one. So, why not, I guess.

                  But anyway, one of the major reasons for installing a 20A dedicated circuit is because it is just that - dedicated.

                  The benefits of a dedicated circuit are many and although there's nothing magic about dedicated circuits, it ensures a single run of cable from your power panel to a wall receptacle, with no interconnections between and nothing else plugged into the circuit except your system.

                  The receptacles in your room at present can have up to 12 lights and receptacles on the same circuit. At each receptacle that the wiring runs through, there is a set of twisted connections inside covered with marrettes (wire nuts) that may be presenting a small resistance. The more of these connections, the more possibilities of poor, high resistive joints before the circuit finally reaches the receptacle that you are using. All these connections can become highly resistive.

                  In addition there are the myriad of things like motors, fluorescent lamps, refrigerators and computers that may also be plugged into this same circuit in addition to your system. All this can result in a loss of power and increased noise at the receptacle you're using for your HT system.

                  There's also a large possibility that if you are using more than one receptacle in your HT room, that they may be on a different leg of the loadcenter.

                  These things are a recipe for problems with ground loops and other interference and the reason many like to install one or two dedicated circuits on the same leg direct from the power panel to behind their system.

                  When you use a dedicated circuit, and noise is introduced on a different circuit in the house, even though they return to a common point at the loadcentre, this noise tends not to travel down your dedicated circuit because of the extremely low source impedance of the mains at the panel. It acts like a pass filter to this induced noise. The noise rejection is quite high.

                  That brings up the issue of PS Audio power plants. Basically these devices are AC to DC to AC converters. They take the AC from the wall and convert it to DC the same as the power supplies in all your audio equipment that you own. Then they feed a very high quality AC inverter to create a new AC signal to feed your equipment. Well, if the AC power in your home isn't a problem to begin with (and it usually isn't), what have you gained here? You already have a device in every piece of equipment you own to nicely convert AC to DC with a rather high noise rejection. Why do it again and then reconvert the DC back to AC and then feed it to a power supply and recreate DC again. Is the AC coming from the AudioPlant going to contain less noise and harmonics from the wall? Maybe not - and as I said before, the noise rejection of a standard power supply in a piece of audio equipment is extremely high. And again, you'd be adding another device into the chain. How many times do you want to go back and forth from AC to DC? The accepted premise that there is something wrong with the power that enters the home is unfounded in most cases.

                  And remember that the P500 you are interested in only supplies 500 watts for its >~$2000 price tag. A standard 15 amp wall plug can supply about 1800 watts, and a 20 amp circuit can supply 2400 watts - no charge. Why would you want to limit the power to your equipment to 500 watts, particularly when most residential power is not flawed to begin with? I'm sure you'll read lots of anecdotal evidence of how someone's soundstage improved or any number of other stories regarding these devices. Believe them if you want. Remember, some people believe that cables need to be broken in...........

                  Power conditioners are another questionable device if you have no problems that you can identify with your present power. What can a power conditioner do.
                  It can filter some EMI/RFI noise. It can provide some local surge protection. Other than the PS Audio mentioned above it can't regulate the power. It can provide a convenient place to plug all your equipment, but a good power bar can accomplish this for a lot less money. Don't spend a lot of money on these devices.

                  Most noise in audio systems comes from ground loops, not from "dirty power". These are fairly easily solved, but it is a fairly time consuming task. Unfortunately, the safety system that is designed to save us from shock creates a lot of problems in the audio and video world.

                  If you're truly interested in lowering your noise floor, in addition to a dedicated circuit, you might want to look into balanced power units that have been discussed here at great length. A balanced power unit is basically a very high quality isolation transformer with a center tapped low impedance secondary. So instead of a hot of 120 volts and neutral return, you have two 60 volt lines with a center tapped ground. Across the 60 volt lines which are 180 degrees out of phase you have 120 volts, with each 60 volt lead referenced to the ground at the center tap. There are a lot of benefits in this configuration. Any reactive currents developed in the load arrive at the common center tap and are cancelled. Any noise that would normally travel on the safety ground are cancelled at the center tap. The ground is basically re-defined and becomes very close to a true zero reference. This does a good job in helping to reduce ground loop currents which can cause hum. There's not much chance of a ground loop. The other benefit can be a lower noise floor.

                  Large current balanced power units aren't cheap, although the ones offered by B-P-T are fairly reasonable. The trade off you have to realize and accept is the same as for the PS Audio system, in that a 20 amp wall plug can supply approximately 2400 VA's and this available power will be reduced by the size of the balanced power unit you choose. If you get units that supply this and can afford it, that's good, and you'll also realize the benefit of the EMI/RFI filtering the unit provides. Of course on the down side, you just added another device (transformer) in the chain. 8O


                  brucek

                  Comment

                  • PewterTA
                    Moderator
                    • Nov 2004
                    • 2901

                    #10
                    Brucek.....

                    ;x( ;x(

                    Very well written and very well put...and very accurate as well.
                    Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                    -Dan

                    Comment

                    • aud19
                      Twin Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2003
                      • 16706

                      #11
                      Brucek, no reccomendation for whole-house surge protection as well?

                      Edit:
                      Also I just want to add that a lot of units also offer protection from brownouts/short power losses, not just surges and noise reduction. I will totally agree with Brucek that $2000 is way too much to pay for a unit unless it has the capability to power your equipment after a fairly pro-longed power outage among the other features alreasy listed (something along the lines of the new APC Power conditioner with battery backup). ~$500 or less is what I'd look at personally for a stand-alone unit without battery backup.
                      Jason

                      Comment

                      • scottielee
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 121

                        #12
                        excellent job brucek!

                        here is my take:
                        1. if you have clean power from the circuit breaker (depends on your building/neighborhood), then a dedicated line should also provide the same and outperform a power conditioner trying to clean up power polluted by other appliances and lights in your home.
                        2. but you may want a high quality surge protector and voltage regulator anyway
                        3. best to have both

                        Comment

                        • tboooe
                          Senior Member
                          • Jun 2005
                          • 657

                          #13
                          thanks everyone for the pointers, especially brucek...you truly are my hero! I will look into the dedicated circuit. so if understand everyone correctly, by having a dedicated circuit i wont have to get conditioners and ac regenerators? but doesnt this assume that the source is sending clean power? how do i know? if i do get a dedicated circuit then all i really need is a surge protector power strip that isnt current limited? Any suggestions for surge protection?

                          Comment

                          • aud19
                            Twin Moderator Emeritus
                            • Aug 2003
                            • 16706

                            #14
                            Originally posted by tboooe
                            all i really need is a surge protector power strip that isnt current limited? Any suggestions for surge protection?
                            Well I wouldn't say that's all you need. As I mentioned you still don't have protection from power dips, brown outs etc that can also cause damage to your equipment. The good news is that you really don't need to spend $2000 on that equipment There are also units that will allow you to continue to run your components via battery backup even during a prolonged power outage. This is especially benneficial if you're running a lamp based front projector IMO as it will allow you time to properly shutoff your equipment and allow them their cool down cycles
                            Jason

                            Comment

                            • Snap
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Feb 2005
                              • 1295

                              #15
                              Dedicated circuits is definatly the way to go. Good job Bruce on the explaination. I have not used a power conditioner for HT use yet. But I have a couple of Furman power conditioners laying around and I am going to give them a try. I have used them and dedicated circuits in churches all the time. They do save us a bunch from large head aches. My church alone has 20 plus dedicated circuits with isolated grounds. Every musician, amp, board, etc is connected to one of these cuircuits. With several Furman power conditioners also in the sytem. (amp rack, and in the sound booth area)

                              As far as just "surge protection" a standard monster power strip can take care of that.

                              The question is going to be... is the Furman going to do the job for HT application? :scratchhead: I guess I will have to find out. They are definatly cheaper than monster that is for sure.
                              The Bitterness of poor quality last longer than the joy of low prices.

                              Comment

                              • ThomasW
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 10934

                                #16
                                I have whole house surge protection, dedicated lines, isolation transformers and can clearly hear/see the benefit from balanced power transformers.

                                The absolute best deal in BP units is the "Q" transformer in a box 'deal' from Equi=tech. At $400 + shipping there's nothing that beats this offer. These tranny's are used in the $3000 Equi=tech units with the fancy machined alu front plates



                                Although listed at 1.5kVa, these are really 2.0kVa units that are derated for use with 14 gauge wire.

                                Note that these are HUGE tranny's 12"+ diameter and 80lbs. The box is 21" long X 14" wide X 4" high.



                                Below is the Equi=tech with a 2.0kVa Plitron tranny (used in BPT products) sitting on top of it.


                                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                Comment

                                • Glen B
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Jul 2004
                                  • 1106

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by tboooe
                                  How do I know if the power coming from my outlet is "dirty"? Or do I just assume that any power coming from an outlet is bad?
                                  Just to add my $.02 to what has already been said, one good way to know if you need power conditioning is if you find that your system sounds better whenever you listen late at night/in the wee hours. At that time, electrical usage is at its lowest and electrical equipment that add noise to the power line are likely to be off.


                                  Comment

                                  • SteveL
                                    Member
                                    • Mar 2005
                                    • 45

                                    #18
                                    Hey Thomas -

                                    Can you point me in the proper direction for the whole house conditioning units? I live in an area with frequent brownouts, and despite several trips to both Lowes and Home Depot, no one in the Electrical department has any idea as to what I'm asking for... (I may be asking for the wrong thing)
                                    No, that's not me in my avatar.

                                    Comment

                                    • aud19
                                      Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                      • Aug 2003
                                      • 16706

                                      #19
                                      I could be way off here but.... I'd grab your local Yellow Pages and look up electricians. Call a few, get references, yadda, yadda
                                      Jason

                                      Comment

                                      • ThomasW
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 10934

                                        #20
                                        Can you point me in the proper direction for the whole house conditioning units?
                                        I have a GE main panel. GE makes a whole house surge protector that simply snaps into that panel.

                                        Here's a link to one brand of enternal unit. I'm sure there are many others, google will help you here....


                                        Also there a some utility companies that have units and programs for their customers.

                                        Now obviously these only deal with surges. Brown outs are a completely different matter. I posted about ferroresonant transformers in your other thread.

                                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                        Comment

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