Some sound stage questions

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  • NeutralMAN
    Member
    • May 2005
    • 54

    Some sound stage questions

    Hi All,

    I have a few questions regarding sound stage. It's hard to explain, so bear with me.

    Firstly I understand the logic of sound stage width and height. But what about the size of the music in the sound stage?? For example, if a cymbal is hit what is the terms used to describe it's size and follow on noise.

    On some systems, the sound will be tight and fast with very little follow on sounds. On these systems the cymbal will be localised to an area in the sound stage, and after the main noise it will not enlarge to other areas.

    On others systems, the size will be same, but the follow on sound will difuse into a larger area. Much like a slight echo.

    Sorry If I couldn't explain it well.

    In conclusion, What do other members enjoy?? tight defined sound items, or more prolonged/ larger sound items??

    To think of it in another way, it's like comparing a Solid state Setup, to a Tubed setup?

    An I crazy for bringing this up??

    NeutralMAN
  • soundhound
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2004
    • 815

    #2
    I am no audiophile NeutralMAn, but I do know what I like. That would be detail, definition, Presence, I like to be able to set on the sofa, and get totally lost in the music. Have it draw me in and reflect back to what I was doing when the song was released. I like music to sooth me, take me away from it all. It is nice to have a system where I can set down, and hear the differences between well recorded tracks, and stuff that was put out to make a buck. I sometimes like older stuff when stereo first made a splash because the seperation between channels is black and white. I like all types of music except, rap, country, the new rock. Probably didn't answer you're question directly, but I get sidetracked easilly.

    Comment

    • Bam!
      Super Senior Member
      • Jan 2004
      • 2458

      #3
      Originally posted by NeutralMAN
      Hi All,

      I have a few questions regarding soundstage. It's hard to explain, so bear with me.

      Firstly I understand the logic of sound stage width and height. But what about the size of the music in the soundstage?? For example, if a cymbal is hit what is the terms used to describe it's size and follow on noise.

      On some systems, the sound will be tight and fast with very little follow on sounds. On these systems the cymbal will be localised to an area in the sound stage, and after the main noise it will not enlarge to other areas.

      On others systems, the size will be same, but the follow on sound will difuse into a larger area. Much like a slight echo.

      Sorry If I couldn't explain it well.

      In conclusion, What do other members enjoy?? tight defined sound items, or more prolonged/ larger sound items??

      To think of it in another way, it's like comparing a Solid state Setup, to a Tubed setup?

      An I crazy for bringing this up??

      NeutralMAN
      Excellent question!

      When you talk about the size of the cymbal, it has nothing to do with the soundstage but more the ««weight»» and mass that it has. When your system can reveal weight, you then know that you you are hearing a grand piano vs keys that strike felt and sounds like a toy.

      Your question IMHO is what makes us evolve in the world of audio. Also, once you are exposed to these type of sonic aspects (i.e weight) your priorites and sound system will change, so what you like today will not neccessarily be your preference tomorrow.
      Got a nice rack to show me ?

      Comment

      • NeutralMAN
        Member
        • May 2005
        • 54

        #4
        Thanks Bam,

        I enjoy equipment that has a nice weight to the sound (yay, a new word in my audiocablary :lol: ), but sometimes I see this gets out of control. That is, the weight becomes so large that all the instruments seem to be mashed up together in the sound stage.

        Now to further the question, when does this become too much?? I guess it comes to personal preference. But am assuming that a good peice of equipment, consolidates the instruments but still allows them to be heard individually.

        The reason I brougth this up was that my cd player (Cyrus cd8 ) has the instruments mixed in the sound stage. When using the additional power supply (Psx-r), the instruments were pin-point accurrate, with not much size. I mean they were very detailed, but didn't have much size.

        Now I'm playing with a Muscial Fidelity x-10 v3, and this opend up the instrument size, but some of the clarity is lost :M All I need to do now is do some serious listening, and make a decision if I should keep the X-10. I still think the sound stage was larger without the x-10 though. Basically without it, the sound is like really to me (good highs but no body.)

        NeutralMAN

        Comment

        • NeutralMAN
          Member
          • May 2005
          • 54

          #5
          Sorry that last sentence should have read:

          Basically without it, the sound is really cold to me (good highs but no body.)

          Comment

          • Bam!
            Super Senior Member
            • Jan 2004
            • 2458

            #6
            I enjoy equipment that has a nice weight to the sound (yay, a new word in my audiocablary ), but sometimes I see this gets out of control. That is, the weight becomes so large that all the instruments seem to be mashed up together in the sound stage.
            This statement is related to the soundstage, and to me what you are talking about is a soundstage that is blouted. When instruments have too much mass (line arrays are known for this problem) they stick together and pile up and give very confusing images. Sounds like your speakers are just too close together. Weight, is a whole other conversation, it's like listening to a tenor sax, the wind, the mass that it gives the soundstage in 3D is what gives IMHO a certain feel to the size of the tenor as far as the visual factor goes. The weight is what gives you the impact and the feel that it is a tenor sax.
            Last edited by Bam!; 17 August 2005, 07:14 Wednesday.
            Got a nice rack to show me ?

            Comment

            • aud19
              Twin Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2003
              • 16706

              #7
              Aaaaah don't listen to Bam, he doesn't know what he's talking about : :twisted: :lol:
              Jason

              Comment

              • Bam!
                Super Senior Member
                • Jan 2004
                • 2458

                #8
                Originally posted by aud19
                Aaaaah don't listen to Bam, he doesn't know what he's talking about : :twisted: :lol:
                :W :
                Got a nice rack to show me ?

                Comment

                • NeutralMAN
                  Member
                  • May 2005
                  • 54

                  #9
                  Bam,

                  I haven't been able to listen to my speakers recently. There is no room to set them up, the crossovers are in pieces getting an overhaul, etc, etc, etc :M

                  But I am using my headphones!!! :T

                  Anyway, Some things I have noticed:
                  1. Cyrus cd8 no PSX-R - warm open sound, instrument have large images
                  2. Cyrus CD8 with PSX-R - Larger soundstage, pinpoint accuracy, but not much warmth. Instruments have smaller images.
                  3. Cyrus cd8 no PSX-R but using X-10 v3 - warm and accurate sound, soundstage a little larger than config 1.
                  4. Cyrus cd8 with PSX-R and using X-10 v3 - Large soundstage, very warm but blurry accuracy. All instruments seem to be stretched in the sound stage area. Eg. the centre vocals fill 75% the soundstage.

                  Now what i would like to get to is config 4 with the accuracy of config 2. I bought the x-10 to try to warm the sound and enlarge the soundstage. It has done this but to a price in accuracy.

                  I've had a MF X system before (x-ray, x-dac, x-10, x-can, x-psu, x-150) and never noticed this "blurry accuracy" situation with the x-10.

                  I need to figure out if I will keep the x-10 or take it back.

                  Ahhh, what to dooooo!!! :evil:

                  Comment

                  • Bam!
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Jan 2004
                    • 2458

                    #10
                    Originally posted by NeutralMAN
                    Bam,

                    I haven't been able to listen to my speakers recently. There is no room to set them up, the crossovers are in pieces getting an overhaul, etc, etc, etc :M

                    But I am using my headphones!!! :T

                    Anyway, Some things I have noticed:
                    1. Cyrus cd8 no PSX-R - warm open sound, instrument have large images
                    2. Cyrus CD8 with PSX-R - Larger soundstage, pinpoint accuracy, but not much warmth. Instruments have smaller images.
                    3. Cyrus cd8 no PSX-R but using X-10 v3 - warm and accurate sound, soundstage a little larger than config 1.
                    4. Cyrus cd8 with PSX-R and using X-10 v3 - Large soundstage, very warm but blurry accuracy. All instruments seem to be stretched in the sound stage area. Eg. the centre vocals fill 75% the soundstage.

                    Now what i would like to get to is config 4 with the accuracy of config 2. I bought the x-10 to try to warm the sound and enlarge the soundstage. It has done this but to a price in accuracy.

                    I've had a MF X system before (x-ray, x-dac, x-10, x-can, x-psu, x-150) and never noticed this "blurry accuracy" situation with the x-10.

                    I need to figure out if I will keep the x-10 or take it back.

                    Ahhh, what to dooooo!!! :evil:
                    Neutralman, What are your speakers ?
                    Got a nice rack to show me ?

                    Comment

                    • NeutralMAN
                      Member
                      • May 2005
                      • 54

                      #11
                      Home made ones, based on the Lynn Olsen Ariel spreakers.

                      They are using scan speak 9500 tweeter and vifa p13wh0008 mid/basss drivers in MTM configuration. The External Crossovers are currently using solen fast caps, and standard 1mm coils. Am trying to get my hands on some mundorf caps, larger coils, and better resistors, but they cost an arm and a leg. :E The cap for the tweeter is about aud$80, and I need two :E lets not even talk about he impedance correction circuits.

                      From memory even output from the cyrus gear/speakers were cold compared to the ouput of the Musical Fidelity gear/ speakers. But I must admit, the sound IS very detailed with the cyrus stuff.

                      That is the reason I am playing with the x-10 to try and warm the sound.

                      NeutralMAN

                      Comment

                      • mark4x4
                        Member
                        • Jul 2004
                        • 32

                        #12
                        The key question is, what do you want to hear? Do you want to hear audio more life like (probably less accurate) or a good recording (probably more accuate). Solid state tends to be much better on the attack of the note (the first part of the note that you hear) but lacking on the decay (the end part of the note). Where as tubes are just the opposite, very good on the decay, but not as good on the attack. I believe that's the reason tube gear tends to sound warmer overall.

                        My son plays first trumpet in a jazz band, so I've listened to many a live performance. If you think about it, no note ends instantly, there is always some decay, but that certainly does not mean that you can't have space and openess, with good soundstaging. I think of weight equating to the fullness or thinness of sound, I also believe the biggest impact to weight belongs to the midrange. If you had a system that was totally accurate and fast it would sound detailed but unnatural without any decay.

                        IMHO, I believe yes you can have excellent soundstaging, accurate and fast sound while having a good amount of decay. It's that decay that will give you the naturalness of sound.

                        Just my opinion,
                        Mark

                        Comment

                        • Bam!
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 2458

                          #13
                          Neutralman, thanks for the reply. I am also into those friggin' $$$$ caps.
                          Got a nice rack to show me ?

                          Comment

                          • Bam!
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Jan 2004
                            • 2458

                            #14
                            MArk,

                            While tubes can generally sound warm and add a lot of texture (coloration) to the sound, personnally I wouldn't generalize tubes as being all warm and all weak on the attack side. My 845 monoblocks are far from shy on the attack. I think part of the reason we tend to hear the decay, and sustain more is simply the fact that we are listening to even harmonics and it tends to make our listening more enjoyable and making us hear more, more resolution.

                            I think weight comes from the sheer size of the driver, when I listen to small drivers, I notice that they image really well, but don't have the weight of the 15" driver that doesn't image as well as the small drivers.
                            Got a nice rack to show me ?

                            Comment

                            • mark4x4
                              Member
                              • Jul 2004
                              • 32

                              #15
                              Bam,

                              You are absolutely right, I've heard tube amps that were good on the attack side, but I was using the comparison in general terms for the sake of arguement.

                              Mark

                              Comment

                              • Bam!
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Jan 2004
                                • 2458

                                #16
                                Originally posted by mark4x4
                                Bam,

                                You are absolutely right, I've heard tube amps that were good on the attack side, but I was using the comparison in general terms for the sake of arguement.

                                Mark
                                Absolutely.
                                Got a nice rack to show me ?

                                Comment

                                • NeutralMAN
                                  Member
                                  • May 2005
                                  • 54

                                  #17
                                  Hi all,

                                  Made some 14 guage power cables from old computer cables, and it seems to have fixed most things I was complaining about :E :E :E . I was using 14 guage with ferrite cores before, and the only difference is that the new ones are shielded.

                                  I need to give it a good listen over a couple of days to be convinced, but it sounded like a totally different system.

                                  NeutralMAN

                                  Comment

                                  • NeutralMAN
                                    Member
                                    • May 2005
                                    • 54

                                    #18
                                    hi all,

                                    I have had another listen, and the shielded power cables do make a huge difference. I even swapped back the old cables, and noticed a collapse of the sound stage, and a blurriness to the music.

                                    NeutralMAN

                                    Comment

                                    • tboooe
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Jun 2005
                                      • 657

                                      #19
                                      I have been debating getting new power cords partially because I believe the theory that they can make a system sound better is snake oil. But from everything I have read, they do make a difference and Neutralman's post kind of supports this. Guess I am now on the quest for power cables.

                                      Comment

                                      • NeutralMAN
                                        Member
                                        • May 2005
                                        • 54

                                        #20
                                        tboooe,

                                        I guess it all comes down to the components you are using and the quality of the power in your area. I used musical fidelity x-components before, and didn't notice this.

                                        The cyrus gear I am now using seems to be more prone to power cord changes.

                                        Now back to the power cables, does that shielding cable need to be inside the pvc cover?? Or can you just wrap a sheilding cable around the whole cable, and cover this with tubing??? I have a few old scsi cables that I might be able to get the shielding off.

                                        NeutralMAN

                                        Comment

                                        • NeutralMAN
                                          Member
                                          • May 2005
                                          • 54

                                          #21
                                          In addition,

                                          Does anyone know where I can purchase good, large guage, shielded, bulk quantity power cable in Australia??

                                          Very hard to find a distriubutor/ retailer. Now I work in a datacentre, and they have some nice heavy guage, shielded cable here. To bad they are installed with power in them :lol: :lol:

                                          NeutralMAN

                                          Comment

                                          • NeutralMAN
                                            Member
                                            • May 2005
                                            • 54

                                            #22
                                            OK ... I am a believer. Power cables Do make a difference. Since I installed some shielded power cables (Foil only with a drain wire), my equipment sounds like a totally different system. :E :E

                                            More detail, better soundstaging, more air, better imaging.

                                            Now I have the Diy modding bug.. :T

                                            Projects currently on the table include:
                                            - 14 awg Star quad, quad shielded power cable (two foil two braid), with counter spiralled earth.
                                            - 14 awg triple shielded power cable (one foil, two braid)
                                            - 12 awg power cable, based on twin shielded braided industrial power cable.
                                            - PSU for the Muscial Fidelity x-10 v3. Including 160 Va transformer, full 3mm thick aluminium box, tripple shielded connection cable. (I know , I know overkill, but hey!!! )

                                            All cables are have been hand made, just waiting on the heat shrink tubing, and will finalise tomorrow. X-10 v3 PSU, well... that will take a while..

                                            Lets see what the above projects have to offer :lol: :lol:

                                            NeutralMAN

                                            Comment

                                            • tboooe
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jun 2005
                                              • 657

                                              #23
                                              neutralman: you willing to sell some of these cables?

                                              where have you seen power cables to make the most difference (Amp, cd player, preamp, etc).

                                              Comment

                                              • NeutralMAN
                                                Member
                                                • May 2005
                                                • 54

                                                #24
                                                tboooe,

                                                Sorry but I'm not into the selling thing, since I only make these as a hobby for my own curiosity. One Cable only cost me about $10au, but I was using old computer cables for the materials. I do not use the good quality plugs, etc (wattgate, etc), because it is hard to get hold of them here in Australia.

                                                I might get into the OFC cable, expensive plugs later, but his was just a test for my curiosity. I recommend you you do the same, before shelling out large amounts of money for top notch power cables. This allows you to experiment without money becoming a factor.

                                                Recently I have made many alternative types of cables, so I can test what each one does to the sound. They include:
                                                - 2 foil shielded 14 awg cables with ferrite cores - good but seem to reduced the High and low signals.
                                                - 2 triple shielded with 1 foil and two braid no ferrite - very large soundstage with full frequency reproduction.
                                                - 1 star quad cable, quad shielded, with countersprial earth - haven't tested this as yet.

                                                In regards to the second question, I found for best results you need to apply the cables to the entire system. I started from the CDP, and applying to every component seemed to make a difference. It all depends on your components and the power quality available.

                                                Finally, if you are intending to purchase some, have a look at some of the internet based manufacturers listed on this forum. From analysis, buying from them only costs a little more, than if you made them yourself.

                                                NeutralMAN

                                                Comment

                                                • NeutralMAN
                                                  Member
                                                  • May 2005
                                                  • 54

                                                  #25
                                                  Ok back to the origional topic of the post.. Sound Stage.

                                                  I have two power cables that are giving me good sound. Both have great soundstaging. Individual instruments seem a bit small.

                                                  Cable 1 - More space between instruments, and can differentiate them better. The sound is not as loud though. Bass is a little lacking. Better pinpointing of sounds due to spaces between them.

                                                  Cable 2 - Larger sound to the instruments, sounds seem to be overlapping in the soundstage. Bass is authoritive. Harder to pinpoint sounds due to their overlap.


                                                  To further elaborate, a cymbal of the right channel would be half size on cable 1 compared to cable 2.

                                                  Now for a loaded question: "which one exhibits the better sound?". I guess it really comes down to tastes!!

                                                  What would others prefer?

                                                  Thank you,

                                                  NeutralMAN

                                                  Comment

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