Acoustic treatment needed or not?

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  • csuzor
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 413

    Acoustic treatment needed or not?

    Before paying $250+ to get an acoustic expert to look at my photos and room layout (by mail, no actual visit), and then recommend I spend thousands with him, I'd like to get your advice whether acoustic treatment is needed in my lounge room. The photos are heavily compressed to get into the 100kb limit.

    When I clap my hands hard, I can hear a metallic ringing for a little more than 0.5sec (but much less than 1.0sec)... is that OK or not great?

    I don't perceive other acoustic problems, but it seems like acoustic problems are something you won't know about until you investigate or buy acoustic treatment to try...

    Of course, WAF being low on these gray polyurethane foams, I'd rather avoid it if possible. Other methods like heavy curtains, fabrics on wall or ceiling, or a thick rug will probably not be acceptable to my other half either. If I can get away with a some corner foams, and a few foam panels on some walls, that would be great.

    Help from experienced persons please?

    Christophe

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  • AndrewM
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2000
    • 446

    #2
    Of course, WAF being low on these gray polyurethane foams, I'd rather avoid it if possible. Other methods like heavy curtains, fabrics on wall or ceiling, or a thick rug will probably not be acceptable to my other half either. If I can get away with a some corner foams, and a few foam panels on some walls, that would be great.
    Some will help, but I'm not sure if it would really help a lot to be limited by that amount from the start. Can you compromise somewhere on the WAF, there's plenty of different colors available of speaker grill cloth, you can easily wrap or make a decorative'ish looking panel to hold the tiles and have it blend into the room.

    Comment

    • Andrew Pratt
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 16507

      #3
      Hmm you've got a very live looking room with those floors and walls. I'm of the oppinion that little foam triangles stuck here and there likely aren't going to have the impact you're looking for and WAF is going to prevent you from doing any of the things needed to really do it well...so I'm not so sure I'd be spending the money for an expert to tell you that you need to do "this" all the while knowing there's no possible way to do and stay married. That said I'm surprised your wife lets you have a centre speaker that big so there may be room for comprimise if you're willing to say go to a conventional centre if it means you can add some treaments to the wall behind the fronts (same color as walls) and maybe a rug between the couch and the TV. Also is there no way you can move the surrounds closer to the back wall by the stairs?

      Comment

      • csuzor
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2004
        • 413

        #4
        Thanks, a little more info:

        I will be adding a drop-down screen for a projector in front of the center speaker (which will move a little backwards), and the TV will stay to the side for non-critical usage (like the news, cartoons, etc). The projector will be mounted above the bookcase, to the right.

        I move the center speaker forwards to get accurate distances in SACD, because this player does not have distance (delay) controls for SACD!

        Getting WAF acceptance on the big center was [and still is] hard, I have to move the center back when she comes home!

        Close to the stairs, there are speaker plugs in the walls, for #6 and #7 channels, but that is for later. This 5-channel speaker layout is better for SACD, and recommended to me by B&W.

        Ignoring the WAF for a moment (but not outrageously, a new suspended ceiling is never going to work!), what do you suggest?

        Thanks

        Comment

        • AndrewM
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2000
          • 446

          #5
          This ought to get you started - http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Access...ment_Articles/

          Andrew

          Comment

          • maddog
            Member
            • Oct 2003
            • 86

            #6
            Here is another reference that you might want to take a look at.

            Comment

            • JetFlyGuy
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2005
              • 102

              #7
              Please take a look at the picture of my room, as I installed the RPG panels myself, and was clapping my hands periodically throught the installation to see when the difference began to become apparent. I will say that it took a high percentage of coverage before I could really tell a differnce, and once that point was passed, the improvement was incredible. The panels are by far the best money I have ever spent in HT, but it seems to take the whole room being treated to get the desired affect. RPG will do an analysis of your room for free, and the package I bought was $4000.00 USD for a 11x12x8 foot room. I love the difference they made, and hope that you can find a way to get the panels into your room as well.

              Comment

              • RebelMan
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Mar 2005
                • 3139

                #8
                Chris, I think there are some subtle things you can do to partially improve room acoustics and meet the WAF at the same time without having to spend a lot of money ding it. Typically the worse kind of room and one that requires heavy damping are perfectly symmetrical square/rectangular rooms. In your case, you actually have a few acoustical strengths like the high ceiling and the open back-end. As such, I would skip any ceiling treatments and focus mainly on addressing the proximity of the speakers to their surroundings.

                First, I would place an (complementary) oversized throw-rug in the center of your listening space. I know what you said about rugs but we are trying to keep costs low while making the room visually and acoustically appealing at the same time; you really have no choice here.

                Second, I would apply either some type of tapestry or complementary acoustical paneling to the two walls were the 704s are. Judging by the photos they needn't be very large, just enough to cover approximately a foot or so on either side and the length of each speaker starting halfway up as they seem rather close to the walls.

                Third, as far as the front stage goes you could really leave it well enough alone. The three speakers, namely the center (provided the TV stays back), are far enough away from the wall so as not to cause significant residual reverberations, and furthermore, the mains are partially dampened by their respective curtains. Or you could create a false window (both sides of course), with treatments that would be made to blend in exactly with each neighboring window, yellow on one side and green on the other. It would effectively be an extension of what is already there though they needn't cover the whole wall.

                Finally, there are designer acoustical panels available that could work well with your environment but of course it will cost you plenty. Or you could save yourself a few dollars by choosing really mundane acoustical panels and dig yourself an even bigger hole with the wife!

                Honestly, try and look at ways that you could decorate the room rather that pad it!
                "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                Comment

                • csuzor
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 413

                  #9
                  Thanks everyone for the good advice. Plenty to think about. I'll post more pictures when I have something implemented that I like.
                  Christophe

                  Comment

                  • jim777
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 831

                    #10
                    Like RebelMan suggested, I decorated a few weeks ago (curtains, rug, etc at the same time as a big new couch) and the difference was day and night.

                    More "padding" also means that you need to play louder to get the same impression. You must have a bit of spare "amp power" remaining before adding more padding

                    Comment

                    • csuzor
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 413

                      #11
                      I've had some time to try a few ideas tonight, results are promising!

                      I brought a couple of big rugs from the children's rooms, placed 1 in front of the center speaker and removed the low table, placed another on a wall behind the listening position, and then placed some towels on the curtain rails and the TV...

                      I captured the sound from hard hand clapping with PC and decent microphone, and found that the sound dies off completely after 0.6s before changes, and 0.5s after changes.

                      Then with some mch music (Romero), the change was very noticeable: each of the instuments stays exactly where it should be after the change, whereas there is a tendency to "ring" around the room more before the changes. It sounded a little "less alive", less room effects but more precise music. Not dead, just less alive...

                      It's promising, because it seems even a little "sound cushioning" has a measurable impact, and these materials I used are far from being as absorbant as grey polyurethane foams (but much more pleasant in a living room).

                      I'll need to consider my options now.

                      Comment

                      • AndrewM
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2000
                        • 446

                        #12
                        It's promising, because it seems even a little "sound cushioning" has a measurable impact, and these materials I used are far from being as absorbant as grey polyurethane foams (but much more pleasant in a living room).
                        You've just discovered that a little goes a LONG way Not unlike most things in audio, you get 60-70% there with very little effort/cost, it's getting that last bit where the hard parts come in. I'd concentrate on early reflections on all the channels you are "picky" about, that includes walls and floor, a number of the links posted should talk about the mirror trick.

                        Do you have some measurements of the room including placements of things? If so I have found this program to be VERY helpful - http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.html - basically you "draw" your room, then you can get a visual idea of what the sound is doing, then you can experiment with speaker/listener/treatment placements to see where you can net the biggest gains within your own constraints.

                        To give an idea, in the last place I lived I was very limited in what was allowed in order to treat the room, but a simple "heavy" curtain across a sliding door and some "decorative" treatments behind the listening position and a carefully positioned rug (first reflections from floor bounce) made a fairly decent difference in the quality of sound quality.

                        Andrew

                        Comment

                        • JetFlyGuy
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2005
                          • 102

                          #13
                          The mirror trick works great, as the first reflection point is the most important one. Try and focus your softening to the front of the room, and graduate toward the rear allowing for more reflections in the back than in the front.

                          Comment

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