What is under your towers?

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  • jim777
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 831

    What is under your towers?

    I have my speakers (B&W 703) on spikes that stand on dimes that are in hardwood coasters with adhesive floor savers under them (what you would stick under your chair or table feet). I did this because I wanted to use the spikes, but I have a hard floor instead of a carpet. I think the sound is better than with the rubber feet, and a lot better than the speakers right on the floor without nothing. I guess that there is less vibration going into the floor, so a cleaner sound. Again, someone has said that this is not true (that you need damping to do so)

    I might add a photo of my speaker "feet" later on...

    I know some people have them on "sound anchors" but I don't know how that helps.

    How do you "support" or "stand" your speaker towers and why? (especially if you have a hard floor instead of carpet)
  • Shane Martin
    Super Senior Member
    • Apr 2001
    • 2852

    #2
    I have carpet. My speakers sit on feet that have holes for the spikes which I attached and they go thru the carpet to anchor the speakers. I can take a picture of this if someone wants.

    Comment

    • csuzor
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2004
      • 413

      #3
      I got noticeably better performance from my 704 when raising them slightly and angling slightly backwards, than using the rubber feet, on hard tiles. Tighter and deeper bass. Haven't tried raising the 703, because now the 704 and 703 are matched in height! but I did angle them back a little. I made some wooden feet for the 704 (see photos in b&w forum)

      Comment

      • Andrew Pratt
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 16507

        #4
        Mine are on spikes that penetrate the carpet to the concrete underneath.

        Comment

        • aud19
          Twin Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2003
          • 16706

          #5
          Originally posted by Andrew Pratt
          Mine are on spikes that penetrate the carpet to the concrete underneath.
          Ditto
          Jason

          Comment

          • Glen B
            Super Senior Member
            • Jul 2004
            • 1106

            #6
            Mine are on rubber feet to protect my parquet floors.


            Comment

            • Shane Martin
              Super Senior Member
              • Apr 2001
              • 2852

              #7
              Another option(not to steal from Sonus Faber and Linn) would be to spike your speakers and instead of into your tile/carpet and instead of rubber feet would be to spike them into a marble tile placed on top of your floor.

              Sonus Faber and Linn both do this.

              Comment

              • GregLett
                Senior Member
                • May 2005
                • 753

                #8
                Marble is the way to go. The thicker the better. Also take out the spacer nut on the back spikes, and screw them all the way in, that gives the speaker a nice tilt back.
                Greg

                Comment

                • jim777
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 831

                  #9
                  What effect does it do to tilt speakers backwards? I know that more or less toe-in makes a huge difference but I never tried tilting back...

                  Thanks guys

                  Comment

                  • thyname
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2005
                    • 358

                    #10
                    I envy your speakers Jim (703s), best speakers I have heard! If I had the money...

                    Comment

                    • RebelMan
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Mar 2005
                      • 3139

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Andrew Pratt
                      Mine are on spikes that penetrate the carpet to the concrete underneath.
                      Originally posted by aud19
                      Ditto
                      Ditto Ditto
                      "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                      Comment

                      • GregLett
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2005
                        • 753

                        #12
                        Originally posted by jim777
                        What effect does it do to tilt speakers backwards? I know that more or less toe-in makes a huge difference but I never tried tilting back...

                        Thanks guys

                        Jim,

                        The tilting bac also gives you improvement on the soundstage. I noticed
                        some additional height. If you look at some of the more expensive speakers
                        you'll notice that the they are built with a backward angle. Placing the
                        tweeter further away from the listening position. The tilting back gives
                        that effect. It's one of those tweeks that cost nothing and is very easy to try.
                        You should give it a try and see how yo like it.
                        Greg

                        Comment

                        • thyname
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2005
                          • 358

                          #13
                          Tilting back speakers? Does it mean having the back part of the speaker in lower floor leven than the front part? I just want to make sure I get this right. I plan to place a rug underneath the front spikes in both my Axioms. Is this gonna work?

                          Comment

                          • GregLett
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2005
                            • 753

                            #14
                            Originally posted by thyname
                            Tilting back speakers? Does it mean having the back part of the speaker in lower floor leven than the front part? I just want to make sure I get this right. I plan to place a rug underneath the front spikes in both my Axioms. Is this gonna work?
                            Thyname,

                            That's right. Do your speakers have adjustable spikes? If they do just
                            have the back spikes shorter. If they don't have adjustable spikes
                            use something solid, like a thin strip of tile on the front spikes.
                            Greg

                            Comment

                            • htsteve
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Sep 2004
                              • 1216

                              #15
                              Sound Anchors

                              I have Sound Anchors beneath my B&W N804's. The Sound Anchors have polycrystal spikes that go throught the carpet to the floor. They improve the sound, especially bass. I have young children, and these stands also make the speaker harder to move (fortunately, they aren't interested in them so far).

                              Hope this helps.

                              Comment

                              • GregLett
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2005
                                • 753

                                #16
                                Yes the sound anchors are good. I spoke to them a while back, and i think they can make for any speaker, it's cost you a few hundred $$
                                That's the effect the marble has also.
                                Greg

                                Comment

                                • Pieter
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2005
                                  • 219

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by jim777
                                  I guess that there is less vibration going into the floor, so a cleaner sound. Again, someone has said that this is not true (that you need damping to do so)
                                  When you spike the speakers you are coupling them, very effectively, to the floor. Any speaker vibration is then transmitted through this link into the floor, which then dissipates/transmits it further.

                                  An isolation pad/pod between the speaker and the floor absorbs as much vibration as it can by transforming internal motion, caused by the vibration, into heat.

                                  Comment

                                  • Pieter
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Jan 2005
                                    • 219

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by GregLett
                                    If you look at some of the more expensive speakers
                                    you'll notice that the they are built with a backward angle. Placing the
                                    tweeter further away from the listening position. The tilting back gives
                                    that effect.
                                    Are you sure the models you're referring to have not been tilted back for time and phase allignment due to the dictates of the crossover design and not a general attempt at getting the tweeter further away from the listener and improving the soundstage?

                                    Comment

                                    • maddog
                                      Member
                                      • Oct 2003
                                      • 86

                                      #19
                                      I have an SVS sub that has just rubber feet and no spikes. The carpet in my house has a very thick pad and that SVS sub would just rock back and forth at the slightest touch. So I had a custom stand made by SoundAnchors. It has big 1.5 inch spikes, weighs almost 30 lbs, and has damping material inside (like all SoundAnchor stands). It cost $130 (before shipping). I think it really tightened up the bass. I can now hear almost as much definition in the bass when listening to 2-channel music as I can when I don't use a sub. Even the bass vibration is different. They gave it an impact test to determine it's fundamental frequency. They said it is under 20 Hz. So, I should not be able to hear the stand (from the sub excitation) for music anyway. I have done frequency sweeps using Avia and I don't think I hear any additional sound from the stand. So far I like it a lot. It looks cool too.
                                      Last edited by maddog; 28 July 2005, 14:03 Thursday. Reason: Added additional info

                                      Comment

                                      • Pieter
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Jan 2005
                                        • 219

                                        #20
                                        Jim, how is the sub mounted on/to your SoundAnchor stand?

                                        Comment

                                        • ajpoe
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jul 2004
                                          • 439

                                          #21
                                          If I were to get something like this to put on my Studio 60s, would it be better than the regular rubber feet that they came with? Paradigm said that mine should have come with both spikes and the rubber feet, but I never saw any spikes... Anyone else get spikes with their Paradigm v3 speakers?
                                          AJPoe - - Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional!

                                          Comment

                                          • miner
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Mar 2005
                                            • 900

                                            #22
                                            My B&W 804N are on rubber fit that sit on hardwood floors. Previously they sat on felt pads on the wood floor.

                                            Comment

                                            • maddog
                                              Member
                                              • Oct 2003
                                              • 86

                                              #23
                                              Pieter, it's just sitting on the stand with it's rubber feet. They said not to try to clamp it or anything since that would change the sub's output (or something like that). The spikes on the stand go through the carpet to the concrete foundation.

                                              The designer at SoundAnchors also said that you can really help the sound from your sub by putting something heavy on top of it. Of course, I can't do that with my cylindrical SVS since that's where the ports are. But, I guess if your sub is not very heavy and there are no ports on top, putting something on top of it might help.
                                              Last edited by maddog; 28 July 2005, 13:51 Thursday. Reason: Added additional info

                                              Comment

                                              • GregLett
                                                Senior Member
                                                • May 2005
                                                • 753

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Pieter
                                                Are you sure the models you're referring to have not been tilted back for time and phase allignment due to the dictates of the crossover design and not a general attempt at getting the tweeter further away from the listener and improving the soundstage?
                                                Pieter,

                                                That's what I couldn't remember. Yes that's the other explanation given for the tilt backwards, along with the sound reaching the listener at the same time. The tilt backwards, along with putting my speakers on marble worked for me.


                                                The bold type below is frrom the Thiel website.

                                                Time coherence is achieved by placement of the drivers on a baffle that is sloped at the correct angle to cause the sound energy from each to reach the listener at the same timT.[/B]
                                                Greg

                                                Comment

                                                • Adz
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Jan 2004
                                                  • 549

                                                  #25
                                                  I've been looking at spikes as well for my 150 lb speakers which are sitting on carpet. The ones that came with the speakers look like they would break easily. Now here look like some quality spikes!!


                                                  Adz

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Pieter
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Jan 2005
                                                    • 219

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by maddog
                                                    ...it's just sitting on the stand with it's rubber feet. They said not to try to clamp it or anything since that would change the sub's output (or something like that)
                                                    That seems to be REL's advice too - isolate the sub with rubber feet, don't couple it to the floor.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Adz
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Jan 2004
                                                      • 549

                                                      #27
                                                      I've been looking at spikes as well for my 150 lb speakers which are sitting on carpet. The ones that came with the speakers look like they would break easily. Now here look like some quality spikes!!



                                                      __________________
                                                      Adz
                                                      Adz

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Pieter
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Jan 2005
                                                        • 219

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by GregLett
                                                        The tilt backwards...worked for me.
                                                        It's a simple thing to try, so I may as well give it a bash. Who knows, it may even float my boat...

                                                        Comment

                                                        • ajpoe
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Jul 2004
                                                          • 439

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Adz
                                                          Now here look like some quality spikes!!


                                                          Adz
                                                          Those are very similar to what I'm putting on my DIY subs that are going to weigh about 110 lbs each (here). Any comments on using those on Studio 60s, or the ones mentioned in my prior post?
                                                          AJPoe - - Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional!

                                                          Comment

                                                          • GregLett
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • May 2005
                                                            • 753

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Pieter
                                                            It's a simple thing to try, so I may as well give it a bash. Who knows, it may even float my boat...

                                                            Let us know how you like it.
                                                            Greg

                                                            Comment

                                                            • jim777
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Mar 2005
                                                              • 831

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Pieter
                                                              When you spike the speakers you are coupling them, very effectively, to the floor. Any speaker vibration is then transmitted through this link into the floor, which then dissipates/transmits it further.

                                                              An isolation pad/pod between the speaker and the floor absorbs as much vibration as it can by transforming internal motion, caused by the vibration, into heat.
                                                              Then the rubber foot would by more effective on hard floors? I'm pretty sure that the sound got better when I changed them for the spikes.

                                                              And what would you use as isolation pad? (Lets say that I put an isolation pad, then some granite over it, then the speakers on spikes).

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Stoney
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Dec 2004
                                                                • 232

                                                                #32
                                                                I question if the extra large spikes make any difference in function. They all use a 1/4-20 threaded stud and the final contact point is a similar sharp point. Unless you forget about the level adjustment and screw them fully up against the speaker base, wouldn't a pointed 1/4" stud have the same functional effect?
                                                                The Dayton spikes look to be the best design to me. But if both sections are not fully seated together, it seems that using just the adjustable end piece would have essentially the same functional effect as using the whole unit since it is coupled by the 1/4" threaded shaft. Main difference being height and appearance.
                                                                Perhaps by installing a rubber O-ring or grommet between the sections you could adjust the level and increase the coupling between the two sections.
                                                                After saying that, it brings to mind the question as to why we use the spikes in the first place. My home has concrete slab floors. I assumed the spikes were to couple the cabinets to the floor making their base more stable and rigid. When the speakers move, the cabinets don't.
                                                                I can also see the need to de-couple the cabinets from a floor that would tend to resonate (wood floor on second floor for example). It would seem to be equally important to still provide a rigid base along with the de-coupling. I have heard that using layers of dissimilar materials are desired. Perhaps laminated layers of stone/tile and hard rubber or plastic would work well.
                                                                Wait, is this an idea for a new product I could sell for $600 a piece?

                                                                Stony's Sound Isolators- 16" square laminates of corinthian granite and the finest natural rubber. For an extra $250 send me the dimentions of your speaker feet and I'll pre drill the divots to fit. S&H Extra.
                                                                Emotiva UPA-700 Amp
                                                                Emotiva UMC 200 pre/pro
                                                                B&W DM605 S2 Mains
                                                                DM602 S2 Surrounds
                                                                DM601 S2 Rear Surrounds
                                                                CC6 S2 Center.
                                                                ASW 1000 Sub

                                                                Comment

                                                                • csuzor
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                                  • 413

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Here is a picture of the support for my B&W speakers, wooden horizontal feet with adjustable height screws. They provide isolation from the hard floor to avoid parasitic sounds, and a firm support, and a slight angle backwards. I believe they improved the sound substantially from the standard rubber feet.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • jim777
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Mar 2005
                                                                    • 831

                                                                    #34
                                                                    csuzor, what about sticking some "feltak" floor savers under your wood pieces? I'm not sure that the hard wood on a hard floor doesn't vibrate.

                                                                    Here is a photo of my setup with those "feltak" things under them.
                                                                    Attached Files

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • csuzor
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Nov 2004
                                                                      • 413

                                                                      #35
                                                                      The guide from B&W suggests that wooden floors are the worst for sound colorations, and concrete (or hard tiles on concrete) should not be a problem. I also found that the spikes directly on the hard tiles provided the best bass, as expected, but are impractical and dangerous (too wobbly with kids!). I think this "wood on hard tiles" is the best compromise for now.

                                                                      B&W FAQ
                                                                      Supporting the speaker firmly
                                                                      To produce good tight bass, with plenty of dynamics and slam, you need to provide a firm foundation for the bass units to work against. This requirement can conflict with the need to prevent vibrations going to the floor or wall and sometimes you have to make a compromise, but, all other things being equal, it's best to hold the speaker firmly in place. Where you have carpets, use spike feet and make sure the speaker cannot wobble on the stand.

                                                                      Damping the stand or support
                                                                      Most of the better stands are either constructed from an acoustically dead material or can be damped by pouring a suitable substance in a hollow structure (for example sand in a metal stand). If you still have a problem of coloration from the stand, it is often cured by the use of Bostik Blu-TackĀ®: or similar malleable re-usable adhesive between the speaker and stand. This isolates well without being too floppy and ruining the bass dynamics. You can use fairly stiff decoupling here because stand resonances are usually at higher frequencies.

                                                                      Preventing vibrations getting into the floor or wall
                                                                      If you have a solid concrete floor, you probably won't have too much of a problem, but suspended floors can act like sounding boards and add coloration to the sound. Here you may have to make a compromise with the bass dynamics and use a flexible barrier for isolation, especially if you need to reduce the sound being transmitted to another apartment. Often you will have to use more flexible decoupling to prevent bass energy being transmitted and there are proprietary isolating feet available from several sources.

                                                                      Comment

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