Playing SuperAudio on a two channel system?

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  • ktaillon
    Member
    • Jun 2004
    • 43

    Playing SuperAudio on a two channel system?

    I have a two channel system using an Adcom preamp feeding a Adcom two channel amp. If I were to pickup a super audio capable dvd player could I use just two of the analog outputs for stereo play back? If I remember correctly Super audio outputs through a analog 6 channel out - NOT a digital out.

    Any thoughts.... Thanks
  • Shane Martin
    Super Senior Member
    • Apr 2001
    • 2852

    #2
    Ktaillon,
    Yes you could do that. All SACD's that I've seen have a hi-res stereo mix.
    If I remember correctly Super audio outputs through a analog 6 channel out - NOT a digital out.
    Not completely true. Some use Firewire if you have an I-Link capable preamp and dvd player.

    Comment

    • Kevin P
      Member
      • Aug 2000
      • 10809

      #3
      SACDs have a two channel track as well as an optional multi-channel. The player will have a separate set of analog L+R outputs for 2 channel, hook those up to your system and you'll be good to go.

      Comment

      • Ovation
        Super Senior Member
        • Sep 2004
        • 2202

        #4
        Yes. All SACDs have a two channel hi-res layer (a few have mono tracks on this layer as well). Depending on your player, you may need to hook up the F/L and F/R of the six channel output to your preamp (mine is like that, it won't carry SACD on the separate L/R audio output) but that's all there is to it. Oh, remember to set the default in the player to two channel SACD. You're good to go.

        Comment

        • audiofan
          Senior Member
          • May 2004
          • 272

          #5
          As i remember, only SACD Hybrid has 2-channel mix . That means you can play it on regular CD players.

          If you connect SACD player to two channel preamp, i think you can still hear it, but i don't know if it will sound the same as i personally haven't tried that. Technically, it will play.

          Comment

          • AndrewM
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2000
            • 446

            #6
            IIRC some SACD's also have a redbook CD "layer" as well as a 2-channel SACD mix and most of the time the multi-channel mix as well. Also I believe that the 2-channel SACD part of it is a requirement for SACD (with all the rest being optional).

            Andrew

            Comment

            • Shane Martin
              Super Senior Member
              • Apr 2001
              • 2852

              #7
              Andrew is correct. The SACD's have only a 2 channel SACD layer with the multichannel being optional but you have to have an SACD player to play them. The Hybrids which came out later have a redbook layer and can be played in normal cd players.

              Comment

              • gostan
                Senior Member
                • May 2003
                • 445

                #8
                As long as we are speaking about 2 channel SACD recordings and playback, I listened to the new Ayre CX5E CD/SACD/DVD Player. Interestingly enough it's audio section, including SACD is only 2 channel. A very different machine than most other universal disc players. And it is an aboslutely magnificent 2 channel audio player with dvd capabilities-the best of both worlds, without the multi-channel audio circuitry. There is a review of this unit in the June Stereophile issue.
                Stan

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                • csuzor
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 413

                  #9
                  There are a bunch of SACD with only multichannel DSD tracks, but these also have a CD layer for all those who prefer 2 channels. The argument is that, audiophiles will have excellent CD playback capability, with oversampling and outboard DACs, and don't really need the DSD stereo layer (many will argue their CD playback is better than typical stereo DSD playback). The SACD is then aimed at multichannel enthusiasts.
                  The future of SACD is multi-channel, I believe we'll see more SACD being released without the DSD stereo layer.

                  Comment

                  • Ovation
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Sep 2004
                    • 2202

                    #10
                    Originally posted by csuzor
                    There are a bunch of SACD with only multichannel DSD tracks, but these also have a CD layer for all those who prefer 2 channels. The argument is that, audiophiles will have excellent CD playback capability, with oversampling and outboard DACs, and don't really need the DSD stereo layer (many will argue their CD playback is better than typical stereo DSD playback). The SACD is then aimed at multichannel enthusiasts.
                    The future of SACD is multi-channel, I believe we'll see more SACD being released without the DSD stereo layer.
                    Have they changed the specs on SACD? I'm pretty sure format specs REQUIRE a two-channel HI-RES layer. I sincerely hope they do NOT abandon this, as it will KILL the audiophile market that is currently keeping SACD alive.

                    Comment

                    • csuzor
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 413

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Ovation
                      Have they changed the specs on SACD? I'm pretty sure format specs REQUIRE a two-channel HI-RES layer. I sincerely hope they do NOT abandon this, as it will KILL the audiophile market that is currently keeping SACD alive.
                      The sacd specs only "recommend" a stereo layer, it is not mandatory. Reasons to not include stereo dsd include costs (mixing and artist's rights) and space (longer mch total playing time possible without stereo) and marketing preferences. I wonder what percentage of audiophiles buy sacd for its stereo dsd, compared to everyone else for its mch dsd. Any published data?

                      PS. The picture from ThomasW shows that the stereo and 6-ch dsd share the same layer, so leaving out the stereo dsd layer allows more 6-ch content. Neither is mandatory. The stereo audiophile must then listen to the CD layer, with high-end upsampling / decoding many will argue it is just as good (if not better). I am not recommending this approach, just commenting on a trend.
                      Last edited by csuzor; 31 July 2005, 07:36 Sunday.

                      Comment

                      • ThomasW
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 10934

                        #12

                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                        Comment

                        • Ovation
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Sep 2004
                          • 2202

                          #13
                          Originally posted by csuzor
                          The sacd specs only "recommend" a stereo layer, it is not mandatory. Reasons to not include stereo dsd include costs (mixing and artist's rights) and space (longer mch total playing time possible without stereo) and marketing preferences. I wonder what percentage of audiophiles buy sacd for its stereo dsd, compared to everyone else for its mch dsd. Any published data?

                          PS. The picture from ThomasW shows that the stereo and 6-ch dsd share the same layer, so leaving out the stereo dsd layer allows more 6-ch content. Neither is mandatory. The stereo audiophile must then listen to the CD layer, with high-end upsampling / decoding many will argue it is just as good (if not better). I am not recommending this approach, just commenting on a trend.
                          Considering the highest end "audiophile" SACD players are two channel ONLY, it would be a death knell for SACD if they abandoned two channel hi-res unless they GREATLY expanded their non-classical/jazz repertoire to get the masses to buy them. Seems unlikely at this point. And while I prefer MCH mixes, from everything I've read in the "audiophile press", those who listen to SACD at all are almost always listening in two channel. I'm not an expert, but SACD is not doing well enough to risk limiting its playback options for no good reason. The "extra space" would not amount to that much, as it can already accommodate the equivalent to a CD in each hi-res mix. The only possible advantage would be to include bonus tracks in SACD, but then if you don't have a MCH rig, you won't have access. There is no MCH mixdown to two channels available in SACD, unlike DVD-A. If they go this route, it will be a SPECTACULARLY bad move on their part.

                          Comment

                          • csuzor
                            Senior Member
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 413

                            #14
                            I don't think we'll see stereo dsd being abandoned altogether, but some producers (a minority) will skip it for reasons mentioned. Those great SACD stereo players are also great CD players, and I suspect most of those buying them want a great CD player first, and SACD capability as an added bonus.

                            For those with a mch player, mixdown is possible into stereo, simply by setting the speaker configuration as L/R and no other speakers. A conversion into PCM is done, and the channels are mixed and converted into analog. Works fine if you don't have a [decent] center channel, for example. However, the result may be strange with ambience surround mixes... even with a stereo hifi, you may not want to mix the surrounds into L/R, but only the center. In the future, maybe we'll see this mixing capability done in pure-DSD only...

                            Comment

                            • Ovation
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Sep 2004
                              • 2202

                              #15
                              Originally posted by csuzor
                              I don't think we'll see stereo dsd being abandoned altogether, but some producers (a minority) will skip it for reasons mentioned. Those great SACD stereo players are also great CD players, and I suspect most of those buying them want a great CD player first, and SACD capability as an added bonus.

                              For those with a mch player, mixdown is possible into stereo, simply by setting the speaker configuration as L/R and no other speakers. A conversion into PCM is done, and the channels are mixed and converted into analog. Works fine if you don't have a [decent] center channel, for example. However, the result may be strange with ambience surround mixes... even with a stereo hifi, you may not want to mix the surrounds into L/R, but only the center. In the future, maybe we'll see this mixing capability done in pure-DSD only...
                              Not all players will do this. I tried it with mine to compare to DVD-A mixdowns and the results were spectacularly bad. DVD-A mixed down but SACD just gave me whatever came out of the front L/R. No vocals, more than half the instruments missing, etc. Moreover, my player doesn't convert to PCM for any reason. You may be right about the direction SACD might follow, but I won't be a happy camper if they do.

                              Comment

                              • Evil Twin
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Nov 2004
                                • 1531

                                #16
                                Originally posted by gostan
                                As long as we are speaking about 2 channel SACD recordings and playback, I listened to the new Ayre CX5E CD/SACD/DVD Player. Interestingly enough it's audio section, including SACD is only 2 channel. A very different machine than most other universal disc players. And it is an aboslutely magnificent 2 channel audio player with dvd capabilities-the best of both worlds, without the multi-channel audio circuitry. There is a review of this unit in the June Stereophile issue.

                                This player is on my short list of players to look at next year. Chas marches to the beat of a somewhat different drummer than many designers, but it's because he's into the music.

                                I suspect it would sound just fine with my Ayre preamp and power amp.
                                DFAL
                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                Comment

                                • RebelMan
                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                  • Mar 2005
                                  • 3139

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Ovation
                                  Not all players will do this. I tried it with mine to compare to DVD-A mixdowns and the results were spectacularly bad. DVD-A mixed down but SACD just gave me whatever came out of the front L/R. No vocals, more than half the instruments missing, etc. Moreover, my player doesn't convert to PCM for any reason. You may be right about the direction SACD might follow, but I won't be a happy camper if they do.
                                  You should plan on it. SACD will live or die based on its own merits. But without the support, or the lack there of, from the "majors", who is to decide what these merits should be?

                                  As some of you know, I have said that SACD's days are numbered, and this is just one more instance of that belief. I believe the latest issue of "What HiFI?" comments on this fact which also supports my prediction. DualDisc (DVD-A incarnate) on the other hand is on the verge of a metoric rise, even though, at present, it is acoustically inferior to SACD.
                                  "Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."

                                  Comment

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